D&D 5E UA Spell Versatility: A deeper dive

[DND_Reborn]

This is why I like the idea of adding a new Wizard Feature:

Ritual Formula
When you gain a level in this class, you can pick one spell you have in your spellbook that doesn't have the Ritual tag and add the Ritual tag to that spell. You can then cast that spell as a Ritual from your spellbook without the need to have it prepared. You cannot use this feature on any spell with a spell level of 6 or higher.

Or something to that effect.

 

[Vael]

Here's a scenario that illustrates my concerns:

The party includes a 10th-level sorcerer and a 10th-level wizard. They defeat the monsters in a dungeon, and come across a stone door with an impression of scepter in it. Some Intelligence checks let them determine that they probably need to place a scepter of that shape into the door to open it. (Did they miss it in the dungeon? Was it not in the dungeon? Irrelevent!) So they set up night for the camp. That morning, the sorcerer switches out cone of cold for creation. He creates a scepter (stone, metal, whatever, they have coins and there are rocks around), which they use to open the door.

Deeper in the dungeon, they come across some sort of fiend bound in a summoning circle. It appears to speak a language, but not the same language that the party does. The wizard ritual casts comprehend languages. Now she can figure out what the fiend is saying, but can't communicate back well enough to for the party to be confident they won't be getting themselves into trouble (they don't read the same language, so she can't just write things down for the fiend to read). So they find another place to rest, and the sorcerer switches out haste for tongues. Now they go and have a conversation to figure out what's going on. The fiend claims to have a way to help them progress further in the dungeon (by dispelling a magical protection that seemed resistant to the party's dispel magic attempts). They party says, "we'll think about it" and retreats back a few rooms.

They settle in for a few days. The sorcerer restores his haste. Since they think this fiend is resistant or immune to cold, his player rifles through the PHB and Xanathar's Guide to Everything, and grabs synaptic static. He normally likes his 4th-level polymorph, but for this fight, he conjures himself up a banishment spell instead. That only took 3 days, but the rest of the party is getting restless, so they return. They release the fiend, and when things go poorly...banishment!

Continuing through the dungeon, see invisibility and enlarge/reduce also get temporarily switched in for the sorcerer, to good effect.

With the information they acquire at the end of the dungeon, they head out in pursuit of a white dragon. The sorcerer spends the 10 days travel time redesigning his spell list for the mission...protection from energy check! ...earthbind check! ...

I'm going to make the rather modest proposal that this is stepping on the toes of the wizard.

The biggest problem is that the sorcerer has the mid-adventure ability to swap in spells from his entire spell list whereas the wizard is limited to his personal spellbook.

And if that Sorcerer were a Cleric, would we still be having this argument? Unfettered access to their entire spell list, oh no!

TBH, I fail to see the problem here. First, the wizard is probably the one that succeeded that Intelligence check to figure out that the party needed a scepter and deduced the proper shape to be created. Second, as noted, the Wizard still has rituals and all their spells, so while the Sorcerer is trading out access to one of their spells for a situational spell, the Wizard might just be casting these rituals, or taking advantage of the fact that they have 15 spells prepared compared to the Sorcerer's 11 Known. Third ... trading spells during a long rest will actually allow the Sorcerer to use those situational spells that they wouldn't bother touching in a campaign. This scenario is more an example of a 5MWD problem and pitting the players against each other than anything else.

I've played and planned a few Sorcerers and the irony is that I find their spell list both too big and too small. Too small in that certain subclasses don't have enough spells to do their thing (Acid Draconic Soul, or Shadow Soul Sorcerers, for example), and yet the Sorcerer's list is littered with spells I find far too narrow to justify a precious spell known slot for most Sorcerers.

 

[tetrasodium]

This is why I like the idea of adding a new Wizard Feature:

Ritual Formula
When you gain a level in this class, you can pick one spell you have in your spellbook that doesn't have the Ritual tag and add the Ritual tag to that spell. You can then cast that spell as a Ritual from your spellbook without the need to have it prepared. You cannot use this feature on any spell with a spell level of 6 or higher.

Or something to that effect.

I tested the waters several months ago with an expanded ritual list when I noticed the problem at some of my tables & currently going through all the spells pulling out spells too good for mere ritual but great for a greater ritual-type thing+various tweaks so they make sense to cast. If you do that, I'd suggest they be 1 hour /spell level & entail things like loud chanting& obvious magical effects that can be seen/heard at great distances or you can wind up with the party wanting to stop & recast X every ten minutes.

Here's my current list of stuff with the ritual tag but I'll probably make some tweaks over time

Spoiler

Knock, teleport, detect evil and good, sending, locate object, magic aura, scrying, find
the path, create food and water, transport via plants, hallow, mighty fortress, magnificent mansion
tongues, arcane eye , Darkvision, zone of truth, dispel magic, project image, astral projection Teleport , detect evil and good , locate object , , mighty fortress (Cannith), magnificent mansion, find steed, find greater steed, fabricate (Cannith), arcane lock, project image .

 

[5ekyu]

Here's a scenario that illustrates my concerns:

The party includes a 10th-level sorcerer and a 10th-level wizard. They defeat the monsters in a dungeon, and come across a stone door with an impression of scepter in it. Some Intelligence checks let them determine that they probably need to place a scepter of that shape into the door to open it. (Did they miss it in the dungeon? Was it not in the dungeon? Irrelevent!) So they set up night for the camp. That morning, the sorcerer switches out cone of cold for creation. He creates a scepter (stone, metal, whatever, they have coins and there are rocks around), which they use to open the door.

Deeper in the dungeon, they come across some sort of fiend bound in a summoning circle. It appears to speak a language, but not the same language that the party does. The wizard ritual casts comprehend languages. Now she can figure out what the fiend is saying, but can't communicate back well enough to for the party to be confident they won't be getting themselves into trouble (they don't read the same language, so she can't just write things down for the fiend to read). So they find another place to rest, and the sorcerer switches out haste for tongues. Now they go and have a conversation to figure out what's going on. The fiend claims to have a way to help them progress further in the dungeon (by dispelling a magical protection that seemed resistant to the party's dispel magic attempts). They party says, "we'll think about it" and retreats back a few rooms.

They settle in for a few days. The sorcerer restores his haste. Since they think this fiend is resistant or immune to cold, his player rifles through the PHB and Xanathar's Guide to Everything, and grabs synaptic static. He normally likes his 4th-level polymorph, but for this fight, he conjures himself up a banishment spell instead. That only took 3 days, but the rest of the party is getting restless, so they return. They release the fiend, and when things go poorly...banishment!

Continuing through the dungeon, see invisibility and enlarge/reduce also get temporarily switched in for the sorcerer, to good effect.

With the information they acquire at the end of the dungeon, they head out in pursuit of a white dragon. The sorcerer spends the 10 days travel time redesigning his spell list for the mission...protection from energy check! ...earthbind check! ...

I'm going to make the rather modest proposal that this is stepping on the toes of the wizard.

The biggest problem is that the sorcerer has the mid-adventure ability to swap in spells from his entire spell list whereas the wizard is limited to his personal spellbook.

Thanks. This example goes a long way to help illustrate the underlying problem you see coming. That helps me, perhaps others, consider "is this anything like an issue we see in play?" and from that get a feel for how that is or is not a concern we share.

Different POV

So, first off - in my games if there is no time pressure or other kind of event pressure (not as someone said doomsday clock necessarily) then problems like doors eith scepter locks are considered terrain and delays, they are not expected to be things that stop the PCs. After all, with no time pressure or threats making long rest on-demand an issue, there are many ways around.

Second, as early as 3rd level you have other ways to fashion "keys" (depends on specifics of scenario as to which). Its not a serious "meantbyo stop" but a "meant to delay ir drain".

Third, a 10th level sorc has like 11 known spells divided over 5 levels of spells The examples here show two of those known shifted off from attsck spells to these keys. So, not only have we lost the spell slots to get past these but we have also cost two of our 11 "spells we wanted on hand" for any or all other challenges that same day after we open the door or talk with etc. Etc. The "cost" is doubled if you will because with only 11 spells on tap, 10 then 9 - we have likely created gaps in our "action options." (With wizards and clerics, we can shuffle many at once, so is we swap out one spell for "key" it can be from any level and we can shuffle others to cover the gaps.

Basically, only being able to swap one when we need an opportunity key, not being able to swap different levels, only 11 spells in our action set ypto begin with... this is actually pretty big opportunity cost for a long rest fix. (Funny part is - it's likely the cleric, druid or wizard is swapping around to cover the gaps we create- getting a cold spell, getting a haste ready etc.)
.
It's not the issue of dialing in one key - most problems worth anything have more than one way thru - but what you are then down after.

So, really, these examples of cases that your concerns are derived from, make me see how more limiting this option is than I had thought - in comparison to the options others have had for years. I mean, it's not like clerics, druids, wizards etc have not be the swap guys with big lists to draw on since 5e csmd out yet these have not been problems in cases like this.

I mean, 10th level wiz likely has a minimum of 24 spells in the spellbook that they could choose free - without any scribing additions.

So, really this isn't the sorc bringing a new option into play, but bringing his own flavor of the feature the others have been using but with more and longer limitations after the fact.

Thanks.

Even though I am more enamored of a meta-magic and invocation swap option, I am less concerned about the spell swap option if it does occur.

 

[tetrasodium]

Thanks. This example goes a long way to help illustrate the underlying problem you see coming. That helps me, perhaps others, consider "is this anything like an issue we see in play?" and from that get a feel for how that is or is not a concern we share.

Different POV

So, first off - in my games if there is no time pressure or other kind of event pressure (not as someone said doomsday clock necessarily) then problems like doors eith scepter locks are considered terrain and delays, they are not expected to be things that stop the PCs. After all, with no time pressure or threats making long rest on-demand an issue, there are many ways around.

Second, as early as 3rd level you have other ways to fashion "keys" (depends on specifics of scenario as to which). Its not a serious "meantbyo stop" but a "meant to delay ir drain".

Third, a 10th level sorc has like 11 known spells divided over 5 levels of spells The examples here show two of those known shifted off from attsck spells to these keys. So, not only have we lost the spell slots to get past these but we have also cost two of our 11 "spells we wanted on hand" for any or all other challenges that same day after we open the door or talk with etc. Etc. The "cost" is doubled if you will because with only 11 spells on tap, 10 then 9 - we have likely created gaps in our "action options." (With wizards and clerics, we can shuffle many at once, so is we swap out one spell for "key" it can be from any level and we can shuffle others to cover the gaps.

Basically, only being able to swap one when we need an opportunity key, not being able to swap different levels, only 11 spells in our action set ypto begin with... this is actually pretty big opportunity cost for a long rest fix. (Funny part is - it's likely the cleric, druid or wizard is swapping around to cover the gaps we create- getting a cold spell, getting a haste ready etc.)
.
It's not the issue of dialing in one key - most problems worth anything have more than one way thru - but what you are then down after.

So, really, these examples of cases that your concerns are derived from, make me see how more limiting this option is than I had thought - in comparison to the options others have had for years. I mean, it's not like clerics, druids, wizards etc have not be the swap guys with big lists to draw on since 5e csmd out yet these have not been problems in cases like this.

I mean, 10th level wiz likely has a minimum of 24 spells in the spellbook that they could choose free - without any scribing additions.

So, really this isn't the sorc bringing a new option into play, but bringing his own flavor of the feature the others have been using but with more and longer limitations after the fact.

Thanks.

Even though I am more enamored of a meta-magic and invocation swap option, I am less concerned about the spell swap option if it does occur.

The comprehend languages>tongues part of the example us more apt than the abstracted scepter puzzle. I don't think the scepter type puzzle is common & the comprehend languages>tongues part lights up a couple different problems. The first part related to what spells are ritual & what is not, but more on that later because it's a larger more subtle problem in the long run. The second part is that there are only about 17-18 ritual spells for wizards once you trip & the vast majority of the common use ones are first/second level (8 1st level, 3 2nd level, 4 3rd level, 3 5th level, 1 6th level). On top of being fewer & fewer from level 3+ they get more & more niche or redundant.. When was the last time you saw someone effectively use illusory script, feign death, magic mouth, or contact other plane given that the lat one can require a long rest or greater restoration unless the pc's next words are expected to be "I'm going to work, merlin is going to take a long rest here in the hotel". On top of being so few, they aren't exactly common to find those spells in spellbooks so pretty much every wizard is forced to make some of those their free spells & that leads back into the first point. A wizard who spends lets say 3-4 of their five starting spells & 1-2 of their free level up spells on ritual spells (pretty common to see IME) is going to have lots of ritual spells sure... but when it comes to combat & getting stuff done.. the sorcerer & warlock are going to have just as many of not more spells to pick from as ritual spellcasting is rarely plausible mid fight. Yes the wizard can make up for this over time by adding spells from looted spellbooks... but a lot of those will be duplicates or entirely random, "I really wish I knew acid arrow vampyric touch & faithful hound" or "I wish I had two dozen spellbooks with fireball in them" are words you probably never hear. Because spellcasters can often float between getting killed instantly & easily TPK lower level parties without even really trying with little in between a wizard is not likely to even see spellbooks early on. The warlock/sorcerer isn't going to be picking up those early utility spells for the first several levels because everyone expects the wizard to so the spells being chosen there are going to be "bread & butter things hit the fan so bad, fixitfixitfixitfixit!" solutions.. on the odd chance that you do find a spellbook, it's rarely on anything less than a cr6 mage, cr12 archmage, or some unique NPC & even if a wizard has the coin to scribe the spells, odds are good that they already have a significant chunk if not most/all of the spells in the book if the gm is pulling from published adventures (seriously how many spellbooks with the spells from the cr6 mage does one wizard need? Not to mention, how many wizards killing the cr6 mage for the first time don't already have a lot of those spells in their book for a long time now?)

 

[Bacon Bits]

The spell isn't added to the bard spell list it just counts as a bard spell when you cast it.

That's not a meaning supported by the game.

A bard spell is simply defined as a spell on the bard spell list. Or rather, the bard spell list is simply a list of all bard spells. They're entirely synonymous terms and the game never draws any meaningful distinction between the two. There's nothing to suggest that it stops being true even if it's only a bard spell for your character. Therefore, saying "X is a bard spell for you" (i.e., Magical Secrets, some Ranger subclasses) and "X is added to the bard spell list for you" (i.e., Warlock subclass spells, Sorcerer subclass spells, Paladin subclass spells) are synonymous rules. The only reason the game states them differently is because some mechanics also add the spell to your spells known list.

When you replace a spell gained through magical secrets, it must be replaced with a spell from the bard spell list. Look up the sage advice compendium, it mentions it in there. If you want to read it differently, go for it.

But that doesn't mean the spell stops being a bard spell for you. Read what it says:

Can a bard replace spells gained through Magical Secrets?

When you gain a level in the bard class, the class’s Spellcasting feature lets you replace one bard spell you know with another bard spell of an appropriate level. A spell learned through your Magical Secrets feature counts as a bard spell for you, so it can be replaced upon gaining a bard level later. But it must be replaced by a bard spell, according to the rule in the Spellcasting feature.

Nothing there says it stops being a bard spell. It just stops being a bard spell you know.

Further, read the next question. It makes it explicitly clear that spells gained through Magical Secrets are added to your character's bard spell list, and not some odd "only when you cast it" rule:

Which spell scrolls can bards understand—spells from the bard list only, or spells from the bard list plus spells from Magical Secrets?

A bard can use any spell scroll that has a bard spell on it—including spells gained from the Magical Secrets feature, which are treated as bard spells for that character

I agree, RAW there's no mechanic to change which spells Magical Secrets selects. However, exchanging a spell doesn't remove it from your list of bard spells. A spell learned through Magical Secrets would not be removed, either. A lore bard could exchange a fireball he learned at 6th level for dimension door at 7th level, and then later at 8th level exchange sleep for fireball again.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I wanted to float this over here, someone on another forum posted this idea, and despite my having no issues with the current Spell Versatility, it was one of the few suggested changes that I could see myself getting behind. I'm quoting their full post.

Another relatively simple rule could be having a certain required number of long rests before it can be used again, e.g. "Once you have used this feature, you cannot use it again until you have completed a number of long rests equal to half the level of the spell you removed, rounded up (minimum 1)." So if you're swapping out first- or second-level spells, no big deal, you can do that pretty frequently. Swapping out your 9th-level spell, on the other hand, is a relatively Big Deal that will lock you into your current choices for potentially weeks in real-world time. Four or five long rests almost certainly won't pass over the course of a single session unless there's already a reason for significant downtime.

So, swapping a 1st or 2nd level spell can still be down once a day, swap a 3rd or 4th and you have to wait two days, ect.

I like this because it does make bigger spells seem weightier, but additionally, since I see this ability as more of a very rare and occasional shift, to me it doesn't change the benefit, while for those worried about a 20th level sorcerer shifting every spell on their list in two weeks, it now takes two months approximately.

 

[DND_Reborn]

I wanted to float this over here, someone on another forum posted this idea, and despite my having no issues with the current Spell Versatility, it was one of the few suggested changes that I could see myself getting behind. I'm quoting their full post.



So, swapping a 1st or 2nd level spell can still be down once a day, swap a 3rd or 4th and you have to wait two days, ect.

I like this because it does make bigger spells seem weightier, but additionally, since I see this ability as more of a very rare and occasional shift, to me it doesn't change the benefit, while for those worried about a 20th level sorcerer shifting every spell on their list in two weeks, it now takes two months approximately.

I just like the idea it takes a number of long rests equal to the spell level you swap. A 3rd level spell would take 3 long rests or 3 "days" or whatever.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

Here's a scenario that illustrates my concerns:

The party includes a 10th-level sorcerer and a 10th-level wizard. They defeat the monsters in a dungeon, and come across a stone door with an impression of scepter in it. Some Intelligence checks let them determine that they probably need to place a scepter of that shape into the door to open it. (Did they miss it in the dungeon? Was it not in the dungeon? Irrelevent!) So they set up night for the camp. That morning, the sorcerer switches out cone of cold for creation. He creates a scepter (stone, metal, whatever, they have coins and there are rocks around), which they use to open the door.

Deeper in the dungeon, they come across some sort of fiend bound in a summoning circle. It appears to speak a language, but not the same language that the party does. The wizard ritual casts comprehend languages. Now she can figure out what the fiend is saying, but can't communicate back well enough to for the party to be confident they won't be getting themselves into trouble (they don't read the same language, so she can't just write things down for the fiend to read). So they find another place to rest, and the sorcerer switches out haste for tongues. Now they go and have a conversation to figure out what's going on. The fiend claims to have a way to help them progress further in the dungeon (by dispelling a magical protection that seemed resistant to the party's dispel magic attempts). They party says, "we'll think about it" and retreats back a few rooms.

They settle in for a few days. The sorcerer restores his haste. Since they think this fiend is resistant or immune to cold, his player rifles through the PHB and Xanathar's Guide to Everything, and grabs synaptic static. He normally likes his 4th-level polymorph, but for this fight, he conjures himself up a banishment spell instead. That only took 3 days, but the rest of the party is getting restless, so they return. They release the fiend, and when things go poorly...banishment!

Continuing through the dungeon, see invisibility and enlarge/reduce also get temporarily switched in for the sorcerer, to good effect.

With the information they acquire at the end of the dungeon, they head out in pursuit of a white dragon. The sorcerer spends the 10 days travel time redesigning his spell list for the mission...protection from energy check! ...earthbind check! ...

I'm going to make the rather modest proposal that this is stepping on the toes of the wizard.

The biggest problem is that the sorcerer has the mid-adventure ability to swap in spells from his entire spell list whereas the wizard is limited to his personal spellbook.

What are the Rogue and the Fighter doing while the Sorceror almost single-handedly solves the adventure?

 

[Chaosmancer]

I just like the idea it takes a number of long rests equal to the spell level you swap. A 3rd level spell would take 3 long rests or 3 "days" or whatever.

Could work, that feels too long to me though, I don't know why 2 days is better than 3 for 3rd, but I definitely don't like it taking a full week for a 7th level swap. Since this locks all swapping, that feels like a bit much.

Could also be that I like it capping at 5 days with 9th (a nice stopping point) instead of it taking 9 days (a weird off-kilter number of days)

It shouldn't make a difference, the more I think about it, I just don't like the numbers as much.