D&D 5E UA Spell Versatility: A deeper dive

[NotAYakk]

I am not saying there is no issue, but when you step back and look at the context needed for this to be a problem for the wizard specifically... it is a lot of conditions.

The point isn't "this will happen all the time" but rather it smashes a spotlight and draw for the wizard class.

The draw is making a collector of arcane knowledge: for the cost of working at it and making it part of your character, you can get spotlight time and solve problems.

Now, every known spells class gets a similar ability without any in-game or bookkeeping cost. And practically will have a larger list of swap targets than all but the most obsessive wizards.

It was true that clerics and druids could already do this; but wizard spell lists overlap with sorcerers and bards more than clerics in both kind of spell and specific spells.

I mean, imagine if wizards automatically knew as many spells as are on the sorcerer or bard list, instead of 2/level; because that, basically, is what bards/sorcerers get.

They where #3, behind clerics and druids, for the ability to reconfigure their spell load. After this change, they are now last out of the "pure" casters.

 

[5ekyu]

The point isn't "this will happen all the time" but rather it smashes a spotlight and draw for the wizard class.

The draw is making a collector of arcane knowledge: for the cost of working at it and making it part of your character, you can get spotlight time and solve problems.

Now, every known spells class gets a similar ability without any in-game or bookkeeping cost. And practically will have a larger list of swap targets than all but the most obsessive wizards.

It was true that clerics and druids could already do this; but wizard spell lists overlap with sorcerers and bards more than clerics in both kind of spell and specific spells.

I mean, imagine if wizards automatically knew as many spells as are on the sorcerer or bard list, instead of 2/level; because that, basically, is what bards/sorcerers get.

They where #3, behind clerics and druids, for the ability to reconfigure their spell load. After this change, they are now last out of the "pure" casters.

"They where #3, behind clerics and druids, for the ability to reconfigure their spell load. After this change, they are now last out of the "pure" casters."

Sorry but to me this is way far out of anything I see. The 800 lb. gorilla of "ability to reconfigure your spell load" the wizard hasvover the sorc or warlock or bard spell versatility is in bring able to reconfigure any and all from any level and compared to that the " one spell of same level" is trivial by comparison.

"I mean, imagine if wizards automatically knew as many spells as are on the sorcerer or bard list, instead of 2/level; because that, basically, is what bards/sorcerers get."

Not hardly - as that's ignoring the one spell and same level items.

That said, let's solve it.

Add to the UA the following:

Wizard Spell Rigging: At the end of s long rest, the wizard can pick one spell from their class list of a level they have slots for and prepare it. It counts as normal against the number of prepared. That spell remains " prepared" until their next long rest. Rigged spells cannot be added to the spell book.

Now, the wizard adds that " one spell pick daily" and with their bigger spell list even.

If we do that are we good to go?

Personally, I think it's not a bad idea, since unlike clerics and druids, the availability of spellbooks extras is campaign specific. Also, I think its relatively small potatoes compared to swapping around lots at once.

 

[NotAYakk]

"They where #3, behind clerics and druids, for the ability to reconfigure their spell load. After this change, they are now last out of the "pure" casters."

Sorry but to me this is way far out of anything I see. The 800 lb. gorilla of "ability to reconfigure your spell load" the wizard hasvover the sorc or warlock or bard spell versatility is in bring able to reconfigure any and all from any level and compared to that the " one spell of same level" is trivial by comparison.

Really? You find wizards day by day are switching most of the spells they have prepared?

Usually you find a good set of spells, and you tweak it.

What more, the wizard (without spending resources on getting more spells) doesn't have enough spells to completely change their spell load that often. They run out of alternatives!

Having access to a large list of spells is more important than how fast you can mass reconfigure. There are piles of spells that are useful in narrow circumstances; "I'll get rid of all of my fire spells and swap in ice ones" is sometimes useful, but if you where a fire spellcaster then you probably have items and feats and stuff that make your fire spells better anyhow.

I mean, do you really change almost all of your spells that often? In actual play?

 

[cbwjm]

Really? You find wizards day by day are switching most of the spells they have prepared?

Usually you find a good set of spells, and you tweak it.

What more, the wizard (without spending resources on getting more spells) doesn't have enough spells to completely change their spell load that often. They run out of alternatives!

Having access to a large list of spells is more important than how fast you can mass reconfigure. There are piles of spells that are useful in narrow circumstances; "I'll get rid of all of my fire spells and swap in ice ones" is sometimes useful, but if you where a fire spellcaster then you probably have items and feats and stuff that make your fire spells better anyhow.

I mean, do you really change almost all of your spells that often? In actual play?

I find I have a small core of spells that gets slightly altered. For wizards at low-levels (like levels 1-3), sometimes that means no change of spells when I find that I have filled up on ritual spells which I tend to prepare last.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Not at all... Chaos's entire line of what if, why does, & why doesn't it. If chaos wants to argue that spell versatility is stepping on the toes of cleric & druid, he's welcome to make that claim, have it dismissed as absurd, & shouldn't be surprised when it gets pointed out that such a position weakens his other arguments downplaying the problems caused between sorcerer & wizard with this UA. That should not be surprising.

I have never made such a claim, so you have dismissed an imaginary argument.

Congratulations, have a cookie.

The point isn't "this will happen all the time" but rather it smashes a spotlight and draw for the wizard class.

The draw is making a collector of arcane knowledge: for the cost of working at it and making it part of your character, you can get spotlight time and solve problems.

Now, every known spells class gets a similar ability without any in-game or bookkeeping cost. And practically will have a larger list of swap targets than all but the most obsessive wizards.

It was true that clerics and druids could already do this; but wizard spell lists overlap with sorcerers and bards more than clerics in both kind of spell and specific spells.

I mean, imagine if wizards automatically knew as many spells as are on the sorcerer or bard list, instead of 2/level; because that, basically, is what bards/sorcerers get.

They where #3, behind clerics and druids, for the ability to reconfigure their spell load. After this change, they are now last out of the "pure" casters.

Really? You find wizards day by day are switching most of the spells they have prepared?

Usually you find a good set of spells, and you tweak it.

Having access to a large list of spells is more important than how fast you can mass reconfigure. There are piles of spells that are useful in narrow circumstances; "I'll get rid of all of my fire spells and swap in ice ones" is sometimes useful, but if you where a fire spellcaster then you probably have items and feats and stuff that make your fire spells better anyhow.

I mean, do you really change almost all of your spells that often? In actual play?

I double quoted you here, because your second post is exactly why I have been defending Spell Versatility. How often is a Sorcerer really going to use this? At 10th level (close to the end for most campaigns I've been told) they have 11 spells known, that is two for every level and a bonus. Two spells of any given level. And to use the versatility ability, they will be getting rid of one of them for something else. This is going to be rare.

Meanwhile, the Wizard has a pool of 24 spells to pick from. They have double the spell choices of the sorcerer with no additional resources spent, and no spell versatility.

Now, yes, I get it. Spell versatility means they could potentially have any spell... but they could have also just picked that spell normally. So, from a DM campaign design perspective, nothing is really changing.

But for a player, this can be huge. You know all those "piles of spells that are useful in narrow circumstances". Most Sorcerer players never touch those with a 39 1/2 ft pole, because a single spell is far too valuable to waste on something that only applies narrowly. With this, they might get a chance to use it.

And I don't see how this ability changes the wizard as a "collector of arcane knowledge", a wizard player in a party is still encouraged to do what they have always done. They still get a huge benefit from gathering and scribing spells. It is just that now the players that had to wait til they leveled up to swap a spell can do so on a long rest.

And really, if it is something you didn't have... aren't you glad someone was able to get it? I mean, I'm not going to complain if it is the Bard casting Dispel Magic to cure the princess instead of us going on a week-long hike to the crazy hermit's tower for me to make my own copy. I still want a copy, but they solved the immediate problem, and the group is better off for it.

 

[NotAYakk]

And I don't see how this ability changes the wizard as a "collector of arcane knowledge", a wizard player in a party is still encouraged to do what they have always done. They still get a huge benefit from gathering and scribing spells. It is just that now the players that had to wait til they leveled up to swap a spell can do so on a long rest.

Because before they where good at it, and it was useful to the party.

Now, they are incompetent at it, and a hobby the party could indulge in as a favor, once there is a sorcerer around.

I mean, wizard exclusive spells are still woth collecting. But don't waste time on sorcerer ones.

And I am not sure how to explain to someone who doesn't see the obvious to me difference between "your character wants the party to be awesome" and "your player wants the character to be key" to the level where you express incedulty at the alternative. So I am not going to try.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Because before they where good at it, and it was useful to the party.

Now, they are incompetent at it, and a hobby the party could indulge in as a favor, once there is a sorcerer around.

I mean, wizard exclusive spells are still woth collecting. But don't waste time on sorcerer ones.

And I am not sure how to explain to someone who doesn't see the obvious to me difference between "your character wants the party to be awesome" and "your player wants the character to be key" to the level where you express incedulty at the alternative. So I am not going to try.

I don't see them as incompetent at it. In any given situation, we are talking about the Sorcerer being able to gain one spell they didn't have. The Wizard can learn and therefore access far more than that.

I mean, what if you need two different spells? Wait two days for the Sorcerer to sleep into it? What if the sorcerer player switched out and needs to switch back, but there is a third spell needed?

I mean, literally, nothing on the Wizard side has changed. You have lost nothing. All that is changed is that within 24 hours, a sorcerer can know any single spell on their list if they are willing to forget a spell of the same level. If that one spell suddenly makes wizard's incompetent at being wizards... I just don't see it. I guess if you decide to never bother learning the spells you might someday need because another character could learn the same spell?

And, I get wanting to be key to the parties success, everyone likes to have the spotlight. But, let us look at taking this ability away. Suddenly, the wizard is back in the spotlight, but Bards and Sorcerers are out of it. Why can't they be the ones to pull out the niche spell? Why can't it be sorcerer's swapping to a sorcerer spell the wizard doesn't have and being useful? I mean, a lot of this discussion could be phrased as "Now the Sorcerer might know a spell my Wizard doesn't and that will make me sad."

Again, if the Wizard also knows the spell, nothing changes at all. It is harder for the Wizard to know a spell that they didn't pick earlier, because they need to find it and copy it, but since your Wizards were doing that and that seems to have suddenly been the entire point of playing a wizard, then I don't understand why that would change and wizards won't be learning dozens of additional spells.

 

[tetrasodium]

I don't see them as incompetent at it. In any given situation, we are talking about the Sorcerer being able to gain one spell they didn't have. The Wizard can learn and therefore access far more than that.

I mean, what if you need two different spells? Wait two days for the Sorcerer to sleep into it? What if the sorcerer player switched out and needs to switch back, but there is a third spell needed?

I mean, literally, nothing on the Wizard side has changed. You have lost nothing. All that is changed is that within 24 hours, a sorcerer can know any single spell on their list if they are willing to forget a spell of the same level. If that one spell suddenly makes wizard's incompetent at being wizards... I just don't see it. I guess if you decide to never bother learning the spells you might someday need because another character could learn the same spell?

And, I get wanting to be key to the parties success, everyone likes to have the spotlight. But, let us look at taking this ability away. Suddenly, the wizard is back in the spotlight, but Bards and Sorcerers are out of it. Why can't they be the ones to pull out the niche spell? Why can't it be sorcerer's swapping to a sorcerer spell the wizard doesn't have and being useful? I mean, a lot of this discussion could be phrased as "Now the Sorcerer might know a spell my Wizard doesn't and that will make me sad."

Again, if the Wizard also knows the spell, nothing changes at all. It is harder for the Wizard to know a spell that they didn't pick earlier, because they need to find it and copy it, but since your Wizards were doing that and that seems to have suddenly been the entire point of playing a wizard, then I don't understand why that would change and wizards won't be learning dozens of additional spells.

No... The wizard doesn't "learn" it & it's disingenuous to suggest they do... The wizard A: choose the spell as one of their 2 free spells or B: Through methods entirely outside theor control & often influence find a scroll or spellbook with that spell on/in it.... C: spend gold and burn time "scribing" that spell to their spellbook then finallythe wizard can D:"prepare" it during a long rest... the sorcerer could skip A, B, and C then skip straight to D because they get to pick a spell from their entire class list to swap during any long rest.

Before you say something like "well the wizard has $WizardClassFeature"... My phb has a number of sorcerer class features listed at various levels... if the misprint in my phb or your phb?

 

[Chaosmancer]

No... The wizard doesn't "learn" it & it's disingenuous to suggest they do... The wizard A: choose the spell as one of their 2 free spells or B: Through methods entirely outside theor control & often influence find a scroll or spellbook with that spell on/in it.... C: spend gold and burn time "scribing" that spell to their spellbook then finallythe wizard can D:"prepare" it during a long rest... the sorcerer could skip A, B, and C then skip straight to D because they get to pick a spell from their entire class list to swap during any long rest.

I'm sorry for speaking in the vernacular?

They could... learn it by picking it as one of their two free spells

or they could... learn it by finding and copying it into their spellbook.

No disingenuouity here, once a wizard has a spell, it is permanently part of their collection. They have learned it.

Yes, it costs them gold and time to gain permanent access to the spell, possibly a ritual spell that they can cast at any time without having to prepare it, so I'm not sure why preparing it is even in D.

And, frankly, looking at B there I am again confused. Because if they are essentially left to the whims of fate whether or not they have any particular spell... then why does it matter if the sorcerer could get it? The wizard has no way to go and get it themselves, it is " entirely outside theor control" as you said. So, if they come to a problem they do not have a spell in their spellbook for... then they have zero recourse in doing anything about it, so the fact that another class can does nothing to effect the Wizard's standing.

 

[Ashrym]

Really? You find wizards day by day are switching most of the spells they have prepared?
...
I mean, do you really change almost all of your spells that often? In actual play?

That's kind of the point. If wizards aren't changing their spells they why would sorcerers or bards? It's more likely a wizard already has a spell during gameplay because of the number of spells prepped vs known and not needing to prep rituals.

Now, they are incompetent at it, and a hobby the party could indulge in as a favor, once there is a sorcerer around.

I mean, wizard exclusive spells are still woth collecting. But don't waste time on sorcerer ones.

That's kind a key point as well. Not just exclusive spells even though there are a lot, but also spells that don't exist on the warlock, sorcerer, or bard list that do exist on the wizard spell list. Wizards have a lot of spells that other arcane classes do not. Sorcerers have barely have any non-wizard spells but wizards have a load of non-sorcerer spells.

A person cannot just say "spell list" when spell lists are not actually equal.

This is what I expect will happen: Once in a while someone will outgrow a spell or realize they need something else the way the campaign is heading and swap it. Then it's BAU. Once in a while the opportunity will arise where a situational spell will become useful AND the party has time to rest AND the party wants to do so as opposed to working with what they have to create the opportunity for a bard or sorcerer or warlock to use a spell they rarely use; then they'll either need to rest again or be down a spell they really wanted for a day.