log in or register to remove this ad

 

D&D 5E UA Spell Versatility: A deeper dive

RobertBrus

Explorer
My apologies if this has already been covered, as i didn't have time to read all the posts.

What about a sorcerer that is truly different than a wizard. By using Sorcerer Points (spell point system), you place the sorcerer into a unique class - as I suggest it should be. The narrative might go something like this: The sorcerer is instinctively connected to the Arcanum, and doesn't need to study, rehearse, practice spells. He simply draws the power into himself and releases it. As this act requires a great deal of control, there are only so many times a day they can do this (mechanically handled via Sorcerer Points).

The limits on this class: Less spells available - perhaps even less than what is allowed in RAW. As the sorcerer doesn't learn this power, they also don't chose all their potential spells (Of course the player will chose which spells out of all available in RAW which will be in their sorcerer's purview). Less spells; far more versatility with the spells they do have.

An idea I have not fleshed out yet, but one I think worth trying out in game play. As we have past rules to draw upon with regard to "Spell Point Systems."

As a side note, this could be replicated by Divine Magic users. A sort of "Holy Person" born with the mark. A Joan d'Arc (at least the mythologized Joan).

My apologies for some thinking out loud. Thanks for listening.

Bruce
 

log in or register to remove this ad

My apologies if this has already been covered, as i didn't have time to read all the posts.

What about a sorcerer that is truly different than a wizard. By using Sorcerer Points (spell point system), you place the sorcerer into a unique class - as I suggest it should be. The narrative might go something like this: The sorcerer is instinctively connected to the Arcanum, and doesn't need to study, rehearse, practice spells. He simply draws the power into himself and releases it. As this act requires a great deal of control, there are only so many times a day they can do this (mechanically handled via Sorcerer Points).

The limits on this class: Less spells available - perhaps even less than what is allowed in RAW. As the sorcerer doesn't learn this power, they also don't chose all their potential spells (Of course the player will chose which spells out of all available in RAW which will be in their sorcerer's purview). Less spells; far more versatility with the spells they do have.

An idea I have not fleshed out yet, but one I think worth trying out in game play. As we have past rules to draw upon with regard to "Spell Point Systems."

As a side note, this could be replicated by Divine Magic users. A sort of "Holy Person" born with the mark. A Joan d'Arc (at least the mythologized Joan).

My apologies for some thinking out loud. Thanks for listening.

Bruce
I'm not really sure what you are trying to suggest, can you expand on that a little or maybe give an example of how this would be different than sorcerers as they are or just expanding spells known to the class list?

As to the divine list sorcerer thing you ponder there at the end, both eberron & Dark Sun handle healing/divine magic differently than what's presented in the phb/dmg where it's mostly power granted by/drawn from the gods. In eberron where magic is a science, divine magic just comes from the caster's faith in something & that something can be as powerless as anobject symvol or ideal. In darksun it gets more complicated, I'm probably not quite right*, but in a nutshell the gods are dead/in hiding/etc and anything similar to divine magic is either a psionic thing or from an elemental priest channeling power from something akin to elementals/planar energies/etc

*someone feel free to correct that if the spirit is too far off the reality to stand as a vague directionalguidepost
 

I'm not really sure what you are trying to suggest, can you expand on that a little or maybe give an example of how this would be different than sorcerers as they are or just expanding spells known to the class list?
Sounds like an idea that's been floated before:
The original sorcerer was different by virtue of spontaneous casting, which had an edge in tactical versatility over traditional Vancian. 5e has a spell point variant presented as an option you'd presumably give all casters as an alternative to slot casting. Spell points also give you some added tactical versatility. Ergo: give the Sorcerer spell points, possibly rolling sorcery points right into them, giving them more flexibility to use metamagic, or different mixes of spell levels/up-casting over the course of the day. As a minor bonus, metamagic could be handled as a variation on upcasting.
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
Sounds like an idea that's been floated before:
The original sorcerer was different by virtue of spontaneous casting, which had an edge in tactical versatility over traditional Vancian. 5e has a spell point variant presented as an option you'd presumably give all casters as an alternative to slot casting. Spell points also give you some added tactical versatility. Ergo: give the Sorcerer spell points, possibly rolling sorcery points right into them, giving them more flexibility to use metamagic, or different mixes of spell levels/up-casting over the course of the day. As a minor bonus, metamagic could be handled as a variation on upcasting.

I'm planning on rewriting the sorcerer using this, the only issue I'm running into is the higher level slots.

Feels weird to say "you can only cast one 7th, 8th, or 9th level spell" but have all these points that you can work with. I haven't decided how I want to deal with that, since obviously letting them cast 5 or more 9th level spells is too much, but it feels weird to artificially limit a pool of points.
 

Feels weird to say "you can only cast one 7th, 8th, or 9th level spell" but have all these points that you can work with. I haven't decided how I want to deal with that, since obviously letting them cast 5 or more 9th level spells is too much, but it feels weird to artificially limit a pool of points.
If they tap themselves out casting 9th level spells, presumably they'll be spending the rest of the 6-8 encounter, 25-or-so-round day plinking away with cantrips and it'll sorta balance out.

Not that mana systems like that didn't prove problematic back in the day, but they were stacking up against heavily-restricted old-school Vancian, not 5e best-of-spontaneous-and-prepped neo-Vancian.
 
Last edited:

Chaosmancer

Legend
If they tap themselves out casting 9th level spells, presumably they'll be spending the rest of the 6-8 encounter, 25-or-so-round day plinking away with cantrips and it'll sorta balance out.

Possibly, just been the biggest issue with the converting everything into spell points, which feels thematically awesome
 




Salthorae

Imperial Mountain Dew Taster
If they tap themselves out casting 9th level spells, presumably they'll be spending the rest of the 6-8 encounter, 25-or-so-round day plinking away with cantrips and it'll sorta balance out.

Not that mana systems like that didn't prove problematic back in the day, but they were stacking up against heavily-restricted old-school Vancian, not 5e best-of-spontaneous-and-prepped neo-Vancian.

Not sure it would balance out really.

A 20th level sorcerer (if not limited to 1/day) could cast 10x 9th level spells in a day. That's a lot of oomph from whatever spell they know in that 9th level category. 10x wishes per day? yes, please.

At a minimum, I would at least let Spell Point casters mimic the pseudo-Vancian casting chart that full casters get. So at 19th level, they could use Spell Points to cast 2x 6th level spells per day and at 20th they could use points to cast 2x 7th level spells per day.

I do think that letting Spell Point casters have more castings of the most powerful slots is going a bit too far on unbalancing them vs. other casters.

"Stress of casting" as explained in the variant itself is a fine enough explanation and then if/when you get to the very top end, your ability to cast the "lesser" of the top end spells expands just a bit.
 

Not sure it would balance out really.
I don't really believe it would, no, but not any worse than many standard-issue D&D imbalances.

Back in the day I tried things like square-of-level, to make casting high level spells prohibitive - casters were able to spam too many lower level spells.

Versatility is power, ultimately, and mana/spell-point systems are more versatile than anything the standard game has previously allowed. Just like prepping daily, then casting spontaneously is.
 

Feels weird to say "you can only cast one 7th, 8th, or 9th level spell" but have all these points that you can work with. I haven't decided how I want to deal with that, since obviously letting them cast 5 or more 9th level spells is too much, but it feels weird to artificially limit a pool of points.

It shouldn't feel weird to say that. Literally every spellcaster class says something similar. Arcane Recovery and Natural Recovery limit themselves to under 6th level spells. Font of Magic's Flexible Casting limits you to creating slots of 5th level and lower. Warlock's Pact Magic only covers up to 5th level spells; above that you need Mystic Arcanum. Divine Domains or Circle of the Land spells only grant bonus spells through 5th level. Half casters never top 5th level spells. Bard is the only class that isn't explicit about treating 6th and higher level spells markedly differently, and Magical Secrets kind of does that through the levels you get the ability (10th means up to 5th, 14th means up to 7th).
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
It shouldn't feel weird to say that. Literally every spellcaster class says something similar. Arcane Recovery and Natural Recovery limit themselves to under 6th level spells. Font of Magic's Flexible Casting limits you to creating slots of 5th level and lower. Warlock's Pact Magic only covers up to 5th level spells; above that you need Mystic Arcanum. Divine Domains or Circle of the Land spells only grant bonus spells through 5th level. Half casters never top 5th level spells. Bard is the only class that isn't explicit about treating 6th and higher level spells markedly differently, and Magical Secrets kind of does that through the levels you get the ability (10th means up to 5th, 14th means up to 7th).


I get that.

But, when you convert to spell points you are saying "here is a pool of 125 (random number) points. You can spend these points to cast spells. But you can only spend a chunk of 13 points once per day"

I get the mechanics of it and the balance of it, but it would be like going to a bank that allows you to make as many $10 transactions as you want, but if you make a single $100 transaction you are locked out of any other $100 transactions for the rest of the day, even if you can still do $1,000 worth of $10 transactions.

It feels weird.
 

I get that.

But, when you convert to spell points you are saying "here is a pool of 125 (random number) points. You can spend these points to cast spells. But you can only spend a chunk of 13 points once per day"

I get the mechanics of it and the balance of it, but it would be like going to a bank that allows you to make as many $10 transactions as you want, but if you make a single $100 transaction you are locked out of any other $100 transactions for the rest of the day, even if you can still do $1,000 worth of $10 transactions.

It feels weird.

It's not weird. It's just kludgey. That's part of why WotC didn't do it. The most elegant way to do it looks more like the Warlock than the Sorcerer. If you want to do it straight you have to add random rules like "the second spell of 6th level or higher costs double or triple" which is less ineligant but way more abusable. You also can't get away from spell points being a lot more complex rules wise with only minimal gains in flexibility. Unless you're Square Enix designing a new magic system entirely, it's going to be a bit of a hassle.
 

NotAYakk

Legend
I get that.

But, when you convert to spell points you are saying "here is a pool of 125 (random number) points. You can spend these points to cast spells. But you can only spend a chunk of 13 points once per day"

I get the mechanics of it and the balance of it, but it would be like going to a bank that allows you to make as many $10 transactions as you want, but if you make a single $100 transaction you are locked out of any other $100 transactions for the rest of the day, even if you can still do $1,000 worth of $10 transactions.

It feels weird.
So what you do is you split 6th 7th 8th and 9th level spells off, like Warlocks.
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
So what you do is you split 6th 7th 8th and 9th level spells off, like Warlocks.

Thought about, easier mechanics, but poor aesthetics to have a pool of magical power... then four other tiny pools over here... and then letting them mix (because sorcerer you would be using sorcery points. )

I appreciate the ideas, just going to keep chewing on it for now. I feel like there has to be something that will feel like a "perfect solution" and if I run out of time before then... I'll just pick a less pretty but balanced option.
 

Al'Kelhar

Adventurer
Hmm, maybe we should cut to the chase.

As an optional rule, replace all of the text under the "Spellcasting" heading in the wizard class with the text from the cleric class (swapping "cleric" for "wizard", "Wisdom" for "Intelligence", "holy symbol" for "staff", etc.).

There, fixed. Should be fair.

Cheers, Al'kelhar
 

NotAYakk

Legend
Thought about, easier mechanics, but poor aesthetics to have a pool of magical power... then four other tiny pools over here... and then letting them mix (because sorcerer you would be using sorcery points. )
It is what the Warlock did.

Basically at level 11/13/15/17 you get a SLA to cast a specific 6/7/8/9th level spell once/day. Then you get 2nd uses of the 6/7 (or 2nd spells?), so you have 2211 "slots".

You can still spend spell points on upcasting low level spells in 6/7/8/9 slots, you just cannot cast real 6/7/8/9 spells using points.
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
It is what the Warlock did.

Basically at level 11/13/15/17 you get a SLA to cast a specific 6/7/8/9th level spell once/day. Then you get 2nd uses of the 6/7 (or 2nd spells?), so you have 2211 "slots".

You can still spend spell points on upcasting low level spells in 6/7/8/9 slots, you just cannot cast real 6/7/8/9 spells using points.

I know that is what Warlocks did

That is another part of why I'm not sure I want sorcerers to do it, if I am overhauling and making their entire casting system look different I don't want to copy what another class did.
 

NotAYakk

Legend
I know that is what Warlocks did

That is another part of why I'm not sure I want sorcerers to do it, if I am overhauling and making their entire casting system look different I don't want to copy what another class did.
Ok then.

What if Sorcerers had a pile of 1/day SLA, for each spell known. And they could recharge each SLA using sorcery points; but not level 6+ spells.

They'd be pseudo-vacian with spell points. That is different for 5e.
 

Level Up!

An Advertisement

Advertisement4

Top