D&D 5E Eberron versus Multiverse

[tetrasodium]

Now, we have to be careful - there are no clerics in Eberron giving worship to Corellon Larethian, by name, right?

So, there are clerics giving worship to some things. And they get spells and answers and all that. But, we do not actually know what entities are answering those prayers, or if any entity is.

None of them.

Spoiler: ECS34-35

CLERIC
Clerics are the knights of the churches of Khorvaire. trained in warfare and blessed with divine power. They fight for the causes of their religions. serving at the command of a higher authority. Most temples are staffed by acolyles who cart wield divine magic but do not have the fighting prowess of clerics. Clerics are the champions and defenders of the faith.
Other clerics across Eberron serve no church and claim no allegiance to any deity. They recognize the power
CLERICS AND DEITIES
Ebert‘on is not blessed {or cursed) with deities that walk the land and talte an active role in mortal affairs. Indeed. whether the deities even truly grant divine spellcastingability to their clerics remains an open question. sinceeven corrupt clerics can cast spells.

Deity, Domains, and Domain Spells: In place of the sample deities presented in the Players Handbook. a cleric must select a church or deity from those indicated on the Clerics and Churches table. The deities are more fully described beginning on page 53". Additionally. thistable mentions domains that do not appear in the Player's Handbook: these new domains are detailed in Chapter5: Magic.
You may also decide that your cleric has no deity

but instead channels divine power From the spiritual remnants of the Dragon Above. Select two domains that reflect the. cleric's spiritual inclination and abilities. The restriction on alignment domains still applies.
Following a Pantheon: Clerics may choose to devote themselves to the entire pantheon of the Sovereign Host (or the Dark Six) rather than choosing a single patron deity from the group. These clerics may choose their two domains From among all the domains offered by all the deities of the pantheon. A cleric can only select an alignment domain if his alignment matches that domain.

CLERICS AND CORRUPTION
A cleric's status within her church is usually more important than her relationship to her deity. who is --at best-- a distant patron. Therefore, a clerics alignment need notremain within one step of her deity's alignment.

A cleric can cast spells with any alignment descriptor. Casting an evil spell is an evil act. and a good cleric's alignment may begin to change if she repeatedly casts such spells. but the deities of Eherron do not prevent their clerics from casting spells opposed to their alignments. This rule supersedes the information in Chaotic. Evil. Good. and Lawful Spells on page 33 of the Player's Handbook.

A cleric who violates the tenets of her church or deity might risk punishment at the hands of the church (though not necessarily. particularly in regions where the church is very corrupt). but risks no loss of spells or class features

In short, their own faith & magic of the world itself powers those spells.

 

[Jfdlsjfd]

You misunderstand my post in two ways. First, I wasn’t talking about the beliefs of Eberron scholars. I was talking about the beliefs of PCs that players might play in a game set in Eberron. Second, I wasn’t talking about the particular question of whether the gods of Eberron exist, but rather whether gods exist in general.

I don't think PC (regular Eberron denizen) would enter a debate on the existence of the gods "in general", including the (non-provable for them) existence of the multiverse. From the POV of the PC, the dragons "closed" Eberron and its 13 planes off. So they have no way of knowing whether the multiverse exist, let alone the potential gods there. It's simply a question that wouldn't generally arise (much like people usually don't speculate whether something happens in a parallel universe IRL, unless they are theoretical physicists... That's why I wrote scholar, as the question would only arise, IMHO, in very specific places of learning.

I understand the "big deal" about Eberron to be "Gods may or may not exist, they don't provide clues and don't interfere should they exist" vs the FR "gods exist, worship objectively dictates where you'll spend your afterlife for eternity, and if you don't have faith, you'll be a brick in the Wall of the Stupid People". An Eberron PC saying "gods don't exist" would IMHO mean "gods don't exist in our world" and not "gods don't exist anywhere, including theoretical world totally closed off from us and about which we can't have any information."

We, players, know about the multiverse, the PC don't (and nobody in Eberron either, except the progenitor dragons).

Plus, FR gods probably wouldn't be recognized as gods by people from Eberron (as after all, they can be demoted at will by Ao and need worship from the people to even survive, characteristics that Eberron gods are not supposed to have from the point of view of their faithful).

 

[MarkB]

Is that... sensible? I mean, really. How many centuries of history does the world have? All of the gods have just not bothered? ALL OF THEM have just not ever bothered? A whole world of potential worshipers they could have, but... choose not to of their own volition? All of them make that same choice, and have for the entire history of the world?

Does that make sense, for gods? Does that match their behavior pretty much anywhere else in the multiverse?

Maybe that's not what it's about. Just because Faerun's gods are a bunch of needy social media icons desperate for more followers to validate their existence, that doesn't mean it has to be that way for every deity in the multiverse. Perhaps the gods of Eberron compete for different stakes, and do so in more subtle fashions that most mortals don't even notice.

 

[Parmandur]

None of them.

Spoiler: ECS34-35

CLERIC
Clerics are the knights of the churches of Khorvaire. trained in warfare and blessed with divine power. They fight for the causes of their religions. serving at the command of a higher authority. Most temples are staffed by acolyles who cart wield divine magic but do not have the fighting prowess of clerics. Clerics are the champions and defenders of the faith.
Other clerics across Eberron serve no church and claim no allegiance to any deity. They recognize the power
CLERICS AND DEITIES
Ebert‘on is not blessed {or cursed) with deities that walk the land and talte an active role in mortal affairs. Indeed. whether the deities even truly grant divine spellcastingability to their clerics remains an open question. sinceeven corrupt clerics can cast spells.

Deity, Domains, and Domain Spells: In place of the sample deities presented in the Players Handbook. a cleric must select a church or deity from those indicated on the Clerics and Churches table. The deities are more fully described beginning on page 53". Additionally. thistable mentions domains that do not appear in the Player's Handbook: these new domains are detailed in Chapter5: Magic.
You may also decide that your cleric has no deity

but instead channels divine power From the spiritual remnants of the Dragon Above. Select two domains that reflect the. cleric's spiritual inclination and abilities. The restriction on alignment domains still applies.
Following a Pantheon: Clerics may choose to devote themselves to the entire pantheon of the Sovereign Host (or the Dark Six) rather than choosing a single patron deity from the group. These clerics may choose their two domains From among all the domains offered by all the deities of the pantheon. A cleric can only select an alignment domain if his alignment matches that domain.

CLERICS AND CORRUPTION
A cleric's status within her church is usually more important than her relationship to her deity. who is --at best-- a distant patron. Therefore, a clerics alignment need notremain within one step of her deity's alignment.

A cleric can cast spells with any alignment descriptor. Casting an evil spell is an evil act. and a good cleric's alignment may begin to change if she repeatedly casts such spells. but the deities of Eherron do not prevent their clerics from casting spells opposed to their alignments. This rule supersedes the information in Chaotic. Evil. Good. and Lawful Spells on page 33 of the Player's Handbook.

A cleric who violates the tenets of her church or deity might risk punishment at the hands of the church (though not necessarily. particularly in regions where the church is very corrupt). but risks no loss of spells or class features

In short, their own faith & magic of the world itself powers those spells.

That reads like the 3.5 book, based on the rules refe

None of them.

Spoiler: ECS34-35

CLERIC
Clerics are the knights of the churches of Khorvaire. trained in warfare and blessed with divine power. They fight for the causes of their religions. serving at the command of a higher authority. Most temples are staffed by acolyles who cart wield divine magic but do not have the fighting prowess of clerics. Clerics are the champions and defenders of the faith.
Other clerics across Eberron serve no church and claim no allegiance to any deity. They recognize the power
CLERICS AND DEITIES
Ebert‘on is not blessed {or cursed) with deities that walk the land and talte an active role in mortal affairs. Indeed. whether the deities even truly grant divine spellcastingability to their clerics remains an open question. sinceeven corrupt clerics can cast spells.

Deity, Domains, and Domain Spells: In place of the sample deities presented in the Players Handbook. a cleric must select a church or deity from those indicated on the Clerics and Churches table. The deities are more fully described beginning on page 53". Additionally. thistable mentions domains that do not appear in the Player's Handbook: these new domains are detailed in Chapter5: Magic.
You may also decide that your cleric has no deity

but instead channels divine power From the spiritual remnants of the Dragon Above. Select two domains that reflect the. cleric's spiritual inclination and abilities. The restriction on alignment domains still applies.
Following a Pantheon: Clerics may choose to devote themselves to the entire pantheon of the Sovereign Host (or the Dark Six) rather than choosing a single patron deity from the group. These clerics may choose their two domains From among all the domains offered by all the deities of the pantheon. A cleric can only select an alignment domain if his alignment matches that domain.

CLERICS AND CORRUPTION
A cleric's status within her church is usually more important than her relationship to her deity. who is --at best-- a distant patron. Therefore, a clerics alignment need notremain within one step of her deity's alignment.

A cleric can cast spells with any alignment descriptor. Casting an evil spell is an evil act. and a good cleric's alignment may begin to change if she repeatedly casts such spells. but the deities of Eherron do not prevent their clerics from casting spells opposed to their alignments. This rule supersedes the information in Chaotic. Evil. Good. and Lawful Spells on page 33 of the Player's Handbook.

A cleric who violates the tenets of her church or deity might risk punishment at the hands of the church (though not necessarily. particularly in regions where the church is very corrupt). but risks no loss of spells or class features

In short, their own faith & magic of the world itself powers those spells.

That reads like the 3.5 book, is that right? This new book is not so definitively negative about the gods existence, based on my reading.

 

[tetrasodium]

That reads like the 3.5 book, based on the rules refe


That reads like the 3.5 book, is that right? This new book is not so definitively negative about the gods existence, based on my reading.

ECS was 3.5 yes. I don' remember reading anything in Rising that contradicts it & Keith's various writings have only gotten more explicit on the "their faith in something angle".

 

[Parmandur]

ECS was 3.5 yes. I don' remember reading anything in Rising that contradicts it & Keith's various writings have only gotten more explicit on the "their faith in something angle".

But nothing that really enforces it, either, such as rule changes. I see no reason why a game couldn't operate with the Sovereign Host as real, if not punchable, deities.

 

[tetrasodium]

But nothing that really enforces it, either, such as rule changes. I see no reason why a game couldn't operate with the Sovereign Host as real, if not punchable, deities.

If you wanted to do that at your table, but in theory it should still be valid unless explicitly contradicted. For a long time WotC kept saying that the reason there was no 5e eberron was because the old lore was still valid. While there are a lot of mechanical differences between 3,5 & 4e that made it awkward to convert too much over... this bit is pretty much pure fluff that works in both. 3.5 had gods as more important to divine casters than 5e & 3.5 eberron pretty much said to ignore the mechanical links to those bits making it like 5e in that regard. This discussion has slid pretty deeply into "That was never something relevant to eberron"

edit: About the only time I could see this being relevant at all is if a divine caster gets yanked into Ravenloft & you were trying to decide how being there would affect them since the prior version was written for a divine magic is explicitly granted by the completely real & provably known to exist gods to a divine caster assumption

 

[Hriston]

I don't think PC (regular Eberron denizen) would enter a debate on the existence of the gods "in general", including the (non-provable for them) existence of the multiverse. From the POV of the PC, the dragons "closed" Eberron and its 13 planes off. So they have no way of knowing whether the multiverse exist, let alone the potential gods there. It's simply a question that wouldn't generally arise (much like people usually don't speculate whether something happens in a parallel universe IRL, unless they are theoretical physicists... That's why I wrote scholar, as the question would only arise, IMHO, in very specific places of learning.

I understand the "big deal" about Eberron to be "Gods may or may not exist, they don't provide clues and don't interfere should they exist" vs the FR "gods exist, worship objectively dictates where you'll spend your afterlife for eternity, and if you don't have faith, you'll be a brick in the Wall of the Stupid People". An Eberron PC saying "gods don't exist" would IMHO mean "gods don't exist in our world" and not "gods don't exist anywhere, including theoretical world totally closed off from us and about which we can't have any information."

We, players, know about the multiverse, the PC don't (and nobody in Eberron either, except the progenitor dragons).

Plus, FR gods probably wouldn't be recognized as gods by people from Eberron (as after all, they can be demoted at will by Ao and need worship from the people to even survive, characteristics that Eberron gods are not supposed to have from the point of view of their faithful).

I’m sorry, again I’m not versed in the setting, but does the concept of gods exist in Eberron? If it does, then I would think that the question would arise with some regularity as to whether such beings as gods actually exist. I’m under the impression that Eberron is supposed to be a setting in which that question is open-ended. If the setting book answers that question for you, however, then it isn’t open-ended any more, which negates that part of the setting.

From what I’m reading here, it seems that according to this book, it’s still true that the gods of Eberron might not exist, but it is now also true in Eberron that gods do objectively exist.

 

[Twiggly the Gnome]

From what I’m reading here, it seems that according to this book, it’s still true that the gods of Eberron might not exist, but it is now also true in Eberron that gods do objectively exist.

Eberron has always had beings that would be considered gods in other settings. They've been trapped in magical prisons for thousands of years now. The average Sovereign Vassal would have an Athar (from Planescape) like response to the entities of the Great Ring. "You worship these guys? Really? You're a little backwards aren't you?"

 

[Parmandur]

I’m sorry, again I’m not versed in the setting, but does the concept of gods exist in Eberron? If it does, then I would think that the question would arise with some regularity as to whether such beings as gods actually exist. I’m under the impression that Eberron is supposed to be a setting in which that question is open-ended. If the setting book answers that question for you, however, then it isn’t open-ended any more, which negates that part of the setting.

From what I’m reading here, it seems that according to this book, it’s still true that the gods of Eberron might not exist, but it is now also true in Eberron that gods do objectively exist.

There are gods that are worshipped, but don't run around punching each other, so some skeptics exist (especially in the aftermath of the Last War leaving do many scars), but most in the setting believe in the gods.