D&D 5E WotC will likely be making a dedicated Psion class, as per recent tweets

i_dont_meta

Explorer
If you thought this was going to pass muster, you were wrong. Don't be rude.
Yeah, your first time. Doesn't negate the fact that there's at least four more topics on the subject and from similar voices that are overstaying their welcome.
Some of us have lives outside of trolling internet message boards, friend. When I opened my Tapatalk app just now, THIS is the first Psionics-based thread that appears. I'd like to personally apologize for the OP for having wasted your, and probably like seven or eight other trolls, time. How DARE them?! Bah gawd!!
 

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In terms of being able to bluff and misdirect for the purposes of public playtesting,yes, he is quite the poker player. He got a third of the Race options and all of the Class options for Ravnica tested without a hint of what they were meant for. Since Crawford took over UA from Mearls, UA has become sneaky.

Oh. I wouldn't call that a poker player, that's simple removal of context. If it's not obvious what something is and you remove the context you can easily prevent anyone being sure about what it is.

I thought you were referring to his Twitter etc where he's said stuff quite clearly then WotC has apparently gone the opposite direction.
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
I really have to disagree on that with you. My games look no way like those they do on the official PAX x
conventions with Perkins himself as DM. And that has nothing to do with the three pillars RP combat and exploration. I also have them in my game. I just use them differently.

I've been debating about getting involved in this thread of discussion, but... yeah, 5e does it for me.

It is completely possible that if I had ever found a group willing to play 3.5 I could have grown to love it but looking at 3.5 and Pathfinder, and having played a few sessions of pathfinder... it is just far too constraining for me to enjoy. My first actual DnD campaign was a 4e Darksun game. And, while I respect and like 4e as something to play, I was never able to run it.

And Maybe it was too finely balanced, maybe I just couldn't grokk the inner workings, maybe it was the style of presentation, but I just couldn't run 4e games in a way that I liked.

It could be because I followed the playtest and have been heavily invested in 5e since the beginning, but I not only get 5e, I am more than willing to break things open and fiddle with them. I've altered classes, made items, made monsters, altered monsters. I truly feel free to do just about anything with the system, and confident enough that I won't shatter everything when I do.

It isn't perfect, I am still struggling to get a crafting system tacked on that I like, and I haven't yet messed with sanity or corruption systems, though I think they could be a lot of fun, but this is the system that I run. It does what I need, makes sense where I need it to, and is flexible enough for me to work with.
 

If the tent is bigger than D&D has ever been, I can't see how it could Ave failed...? The audience is larger and more diverse than ever. That's what big tent means.

That’s what I’d call totally missing the point (which may be my fault, English is not my native language). For the purpose of the discussion I’m trying to advance here, 5e could be played by 1 billion people, it could be a fad between Amazon Indians who avoided contact with the west before learning about the existence of D&D. None of that would change the fact that, RAW, it supports a single playing style, while the developers promised something else back in 2014.

While I think it’s great that D&D has never been so big and it’s public has never been so diverse, that’s not what I want to discuss at all.

You can disagree with my statement about a lack of support for different playing styles. If you think that’s the case, I’d love to hear your reasons on that matter, but there’s no reason to discuss if WotC created it’s “big tent” in regard to the number and diversity of people playing, we both agree this is real, and a good thing.
 


dave2008

Legend
It's not that I miss this or that promise of support, specifically. I'm not calling WotC on a failed promise to deliver epic-level play or a classed warlord. What I'm saying, and I know that this is a strong statement, is that this tent is not big at all.

As written, I don't feel like 5e supports more than a single playing style, the one made possible by RAW PHB. Besides that, it pays lip service to a promise of diverse gameplay with 15-20 pages of the Dungeon Master's Guide.

I enjoy the playing style that 5e enables, and that's why I've been playing it almost exclusively for the last 5.5 years (more, if you consider the fact that we moved to 5e more or less definitely when the last playtest was released), but can you think about people that believed WotC when they said that tactical gameplay would be a real option? If tactical gameplay was a dealbreaker for them, they probably abandoned the ship by now, but they could well have supported the edition for 1-2 years while waiting for something worth their time to appear.

I believe the same is true for almost everything we could mention as a different playing style. 5e can't do gritty properly. It can't do low-magic properly (and the rules for buying/selling magic items make it appear like it cannot do really high magic properly either). It can't do tactical properly. It can't do different technological levels. And its chief designers are shunning away from even releasing a character class that creates supernatural effects through anything that is not a spell/spell slot.

Heck, the monk in the PHB would probably fail to pass the Arcana Unearthed test in 2019. The warlock would be threatened as well. The published artificer, which is the most innovative thing to come out of WotC in the last 5.5 years, is uninspiring, to say the least. I'm the lucky guy here, some sound rules for psionics is probably the first thing I really wanted from WotC that I believe they'll fail to deliver. But big tent? Really? No, I don't think that's the case.
Ok, what play style is that? I know my two groups play very differently and they both play 5e. I know from reading posts on these forums that there are others here that play differently than either of my groups. I know there are low-magic, horror, high-magic, noir, modern, sci-fi, and investigation / mystery settings for 5e. I know they play differently as well. I just simple can't find any objective support for your claim. Seems like a user issue to me
 

WotC should publish a psion/mystic class because if Dreamscarred Press published created more for Pathfinder, and Paizo published FIVE occult classes, the equivalent to psionic, then some players would complain.
 

Some of us have lives outside of trolling internet message boards, friend. When I opened my Tapatalk app just now, THIS is the first Psionics-based thread that appears. I'd like to personally apologize for the OP for having wasted your, and probably like seven or eight other trolls, time. How DARE them?! Bah gawd!!
Again, that doesn't change the fact that we already have several threads on this very topic, that Crawford's tweet wasn't really justification for another one being created, and that in general, proliferation of threads on the same topic isn't appreciated by most forums unless it's part of a forum sanctiond or at least abetted effort at circlejerking the topic to death. My intention was not to get a rise out of OP, as the definition of "troll" would suggest, but merely to point out the above facts, which OP seemed to be unaware of.
 

That, right there, is the essence of the big tent - not that each and every one of us will find everything we want - but that each of us can find enough of what we want to still have fun. It is about the essence of the overall experience, not about the details.

And still, 5e cannot give proper support to tactical gameplay. Would you say, in the context of D&D, that sound rules for tactical gameplay are just about the details? Not that I'm personally looking forward to it, but it was promised. And that's the point: in my opinion, a D&D big tent where tactical gameplay is not a real option is not a big tent at all. This is not about supporting an obscure narrative style favored by fans of Dragonlance 5th Age, people who would enjoy some usable flanking rules may well be a silent majority, we may never know.

And, I think they honestly believed that, at the time. I think that was the plan. But no plan survives contact with reality intact. Reality is, they can't produce all those things, but keep the game scope and publication cycle down to sustainable rates.

I agree with that. I'm not asking WotC to deliver on everything, though, I just think they should at least try to deliver something. By now, they're not even trying.

I think, then, that you completely misunderstand what UA is, and what its playtest material represents. It is NOT a statement of where they are going. It is an EXPERIMENT - they demonstrably listen to the playtest feedback, and adjust plans accordingly.

I don't think they're experimenting with UA anymore. The mystic from 3 years ago, the sorcerer that appeared in one of the playtests, those were experiments. For some time now, UA has been mainly about in how many ways they can reflavor/reskin/adapt in a different base class the same set of character options.

Also, related, I think you may have forgotten one of the biggest lessons of RPG history - Do. Not. Split. Your. Audience. Build a game where disparate individuals can go off and play in their little, insular corners, and your audience is split. Each sub-group will expect full support for its little niche, and as we have seen, that's not viable. A successful Big Tent game keeps us all together, rather than sending us off into little sub-groups.

While this has been the generally accepted Ryan Dancey wisdom on the matter for some time now, other publishers have thrived by going in a different route. Personally, I believe the sweet spot is probably somewhere in between TSR releasing a Monster Compendium for Birthright and Jeremy Crawford believing they should not spend 30 pages from a future sourcebook with a psionics subsystem that is not just some subclasses with no underlying connection within the rules.

Here, you say they aren't willing to iterate and innovate, but when they do experiments in UA, you get "worried" about "statements". You do realize that this kind of approach makes it impossible to please you?

If you think the last UA counts as a real experiment, good to you, the same message can be read in different ways by different interlocutors. From my point of view, though, they're not even trying anymore. If this proves to be the best way to make D&D bigger and the Hasbro shareholders richer, good. I can live with that. I don't play D&D exclusively, so I can always look for a different game system whenever I feel like 5e is not checking all the right boxes.

By the way - history: in the time it has taken Pathfinder to get around to doing one major overhaul of its core, D&D has done two. If your takeaway is that Pathfinder is more willing to experiment... well, you take that away, then.

For financial reasons, it seems. Once the cash started flowing in the right direction again, they could not be bothered to release an artificer that's not just a variant spellcaster with a sidebar describing "what's happening in the fiction when you 'cast' your spells".
 

Ok, what play style is that? I know my two groups play very differently and they both play 5e. I know from reading posts on these forums that there are others here that play differently than either of my groups. I know there are low-magic, horror, high-magic, noir, modern, sci-fi, and investigation / mystery settings for 5e. I know they play differently as well. I just simple can't find any objective support for your claim. Seems like a user issue to me

Indeed. And my point is that all of that is in spite of a lack of official support, not thanks to it. I can homebrew a psionics system that proves to be the best for my own gaming purposes, that won't change the fact that WotC failed to deliver an official one. By now, that's true of almost any gaming-related need that's not a fully-fledged campaign every 6-8 months.

I sometimes house-rule 5e for the specific needs of a given campaign, I give a lot of support for third-party stuff, including financial support by way of Kickstarter backing and purchase at retailers. I can do all of that and still want to see some cutting edge stuff from the people who used to be called the "game wizards". Or maybe I'm outdated and Senior Game Designer in Renton is not the dream job for RPG writers anymore... :rolleyes:
 

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