D&D 2E Which is the better fantasy rpg and why: D&D 5e or Pathfinder 2e?

[Doug McCrae]

Hero System failed because it reduced anything you tried to play in it to totally flavourless mush.

The main thing is was utterly terrible at was superheroes. Yeah, I went there. It was totally awful at superheroes. It turned these mythical, exciting beings in giant bags of numbers, where everything had to precisely, elaborately and tediously quantified using a system far better suited to a quasi-realist SWAT vs Terrorists-type game than anything else.

I agree with you. HERO Champions is essentially a squad-level wargame. It's a pretty good one, if that's what you want, but it doesn't feel like a superhero comic (except in a few small parts of the rules such as knockback and soliloquoy-takes-no-time). To be fair tho, Champions came out in 1981 and no one had any idea how to simulate fiction in an rpg back then.

 

[Tony Vargas]

I’m gonna put my head on a chopping block but man... I think Essentials, even though I didn’t get to play it, ... has that old school vibe but a complexity of options. Had they revised the player book option to one book instead of two largely repetitive books instead then they could have had a legitimate hit. The big flaw to Essentials was presentation and I like it better than PF2.

Essentials, very much like 5e*, tried to combine an old-school appeal ("The Box is Back! Respect the Box!") with new-player accessibility, but also was saddled with maintaining plausible deniability that it was even a half-ed, and thus didn't go far enough in that old-school appeal, or even just acceptability, once you opened said Red Box, and found, well, nothing remotely old-school, just new-player-accessible, 4e-compatible under the old-school veneer.






* it seems to be a WotC thang to test out the design direction of a new ed with the last-gasp products of the prior one. Bo9S & 4e; Essentials & 5e. I doubt 5e will have a similar last gasp, though.

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

I’m gonna put my head on a chopping block but man... I think Essentials, even though I didn’t get to play it, pretty darn good. It cleaned up the problems of 4e, released the tokens with the Monster Vault so new people didn’t feel like they had to invest a ton of money in miniatures and made an excellent system more accessible. It has that old school vibe but a complexity of options. Had they revised the player book option to one book instead of two largely repetitive books instead then they could have had a legitimate hit. The big flaw to Essentials was presentation and I like it better than PF2.

I'm testing a new idea with a friend: using 4e Essentials (+ Marshal warlord) (without feats) line with the maths of 5e.
Allowed class are:
Fighter: Knight or Slayer
Wizard: Illusion, Evocation, Enchantment, Necromancy
Thief
Marshal: Tactical or inspiring
Ranger: Scout or Hunter
Sentinel Druid: Spring or Summer
Cavalier: Valor or Sacrifice
Hexblade: Fey or Fiend
Warpriest: Storm or Sun

So far it works great, and with little to no work required.

• Add proficiency to attack and skill, not 1/2 level.
• NADs are 10+prof+Stat+class bonus
• Use skills list from 5e class.
• Use weapons and armor prof. from 4e.

 

[Tony Vargas]

I'm testing a new idea with a friend: using 4e Essentials (+ Marshal warlord) (without feats) line with the maths of 5e...So far it works great, and with little to no work required.

• Add proficiency to attack and skill, not 1/2 level.
• NADs are 10+prof+Stat+class bonus
• Use skills list from 5e class.
• Use weapons and armor prof. from 4e.

As far as the scaling of d20 checks goes, it's nearly cosmetic, so swapping in 5e prof for 4e 1/2 level doesn't sound unreasonable, at all...
...I assume you haven't gone past 20th level, and maybe have no plans to, but you could just continue to extend the prof progression, if you did.

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

As far as the scaling of d20 checks goes, it's nearly cosmetic, so swapping in 5e prof for 4e 1/2 level doesn't sound unreasonable, at all...
...I assume you haven't gone past 20th level, and maybe have no plans to, but you could just continue to extend the prof progression, if you did.

As this is just a test, I dont know how far we will go with it. I'm usually not a fan of epic level games. I'd probably increase prof up to +9 at level 30, something like that.

For now, its more a test to see it 5e maths can handle things like encounter/daily powers, healing surge, squares instead of feet, roll against different defenses instead of saves etc.

So far its going great.

 

[Tony Vargas]

For now, its more a test to see it 5e maths can handle things like encounter/daily powers, healing surge, squares instead of feet, roll against different defenses instead of saves etc.

So far its going great.

The only thing it doesn't handle is that sense of progression (that is, it merely mutes any sense of progression). It's kinda redundant, for instance, when you already have secondary roles.

Have you used minions much? It occurs to me they might not work out quite right. A minion jumps 8 or so levels in return for being a one-real-hit-kill. In 5e progression, 8 levels doesn't mean much, minions should probably be worth fewer xp…

...yeah, now that I think of it, xp & encounter guidelines are only going to work well right near at-level - as in 5e, lower-level to the point of trivial in 4e can instead overwhelm you. ...hmm....

 

[Wiseblood]

I would say 5e. I like the settings better. I like the art better. I like the fact that I already own the system.

Money and then learning pf2e while trying to unlearn every other version of some obscure rule that has left cobwebs in my mind is not worth it.

I can foresee no circumstance that would lure me to pf2.

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

The only thing it doesn't handle is that sense of progression (that is, it merely mutes any sense of progression). It's kinda redundant, for instance, when you already have secondary roles.

Have you used minions much? It occurs to me they might not work out quite right. A minion jumps 8 or so levels in return for being a one-real-hit-kill. In 5e progression, 8 levels doesn't mean much, minions should probably be worth fewer xp…

...yeah, now that I think of it, xp & encounter guidelines are only going to work well right near at-level - as in 5e, lower-level to the point of trivial in 4e can instead overwhelm you. ...hmm....

For now I used mostly 5e monsters with a some 4-ism on 'em, like special actions on bloodied and such. Also, I use milestone advancement instead of XP, so the net value of a minion is lost on me. I use some minions (use the same 5e goblins stats, for example, but with 1 hp) but I dont use a bunch of them at the same time, maybe 2-3 with 2-3 normal goblins.

But yeah, its a little deadlier. Everyone have low-ish hp and can burst damage.

 

[Giltonio_Santos]

I am not 100% sure what you mean by "developing their system," but I am guessing that, IMO, the truth is more like developing they are no developing the system how you want or at the speed you want. Objectively WotC has developed the system and continues to develop the system, it has just been at a historically slow pace.

And then we ask, after almost six years: If the rules options and expansions people are looking forward to are developed at such a slow pace that we may well see a new edition before this one becomes "complete", are their developments worth taking notice? This is the question bugging me right now... :/

 

[Doc_Klueless]

This one is complete.