D&D 5E Critiquing the System

[JiffyPopTart]

I've always said that 4e is one of the best tabletop tactical squad-based combat games I've ever played. And I still believe that to be true today. It's a fantastic game in that genre. The addition of a few fringe mechanics like skills was enough to turn it into a fully fledged RPG. However, it never felt like D&D while I was playing it, and we ran into problems running it as a TTRPG.

You couldn't have echoed my thoughts in a better manner. I still maintain that 4e is an AWESOME set of rules for a tactical combat wargame. The issue is that its pretty crap for a role-playing game. Doubly (or triply) so for a game that doesn't emphasize combat.

The thing about its feel (that you might not be able to put your finger on) is that all of the spells (which are now powers) have a very distinct codified description of what they do that allows 0 wiggle room for the GM to interpret. Once again good for a tactics boardgame, but bad for a roleplaying game.

 

[Tony Vargas]

However, I made the mistake of making a rogue in 5e - and why pay attention when it's not my turn? Nothing anyone else does is really likely to have much impact on the one thing I can do on my turn every turn.

Shouldn't things others do have an impact on your ability to gain Advantage for your all-important SA, though?

 

[tetrasodium]

I often felt that 4E kept me more engaged when it was not my turn, as the changes in the battlefield would affect what I wanted to do and I needed to keep an eye open for an interrupt or reaction.

But I agree that it did take too long and there were just too many small and fiddly bonuses that didn't make enough impact.

However, I made the mistake of making a rogue in 5e - and why pay attention when it's not my turn? Nothing anyone else does is really likely to have much impact on the one thing I can do on my turn every turn. Not every class is that bad - my paladin has real decisions to make - but my god playing a rogue was boring once combat started.

I often felt that 4E kept me more engaged when it was not my turn, as the changes in the battlefield would affect what I wanted to do and I needed to keep an eye open for an interrupt or reaction.

But I agree that it did take too long and there were just too many small and fiddly bonuses that didn't make enough impact.

However, I made the mistake of making a rogue in 5e - and why pay attention when it's not my turn? Nothing anyone else does is really likely to have much impact on the one thing I can do on my turn every turn. Not every class is that bad - my paladin has real decisions to make - but my god playing a rogue was boring once combat started.

I have a player like this who always always always has no idea what's going on & what he's going to do on his turn because the situation changed ever so slightly between his current turn & his last turn. Something died, things moved, a spell was cast, etc. The only reason I haven't booted him yet is because he's someone's boyfriend... What you describe is a player problem not a system problem no matter how you justify it.

 

[Don Durito]

Shouldn't things others do have an impact on your ability to gain Advantage for your all-important SA, though?

Yeah but it's very obvious at a glance. If people were knocking people prone or something like that then I guess it would be make more impact - but that mostly doesn't happen - I don't see many conditions applied.

There's a little bit of creativity in working out how to get advantage on your turn - but it's not very satisfying as your applying it to get up to par - rather than to get beyond it (and really, even with sneak attack, rogue damage feels subpar.)

 

[Don Durito]

I have a player like this who always always always has no idea what's going on & what he's going to do on his turn because the situation changed ever so slightly between his current turn & his last turn. Something died, things moved, a spell was cast, etc. The only reason I haven't booted him yet is because he's someone's boyfriend... What you describe is a player problem not a system problem no matter how you justify it.

No dude. It's what you describe. You quoted the post twice but I don't think you understood it. You've just skimmed something that seems vaguely related to a personal bugbear you have and jumped on it.

What I said was that I don't need to pay much attention to take my action on my turn. Ergo I am able to take my action on my turn swiftly (and am in fact the fastest to do so most rounds as I don't have any real decisions to make.)

 

[Tony Vargas]

What I said was that I don't need to pay much attention to take my action on my turn. Ergo I am able to take my action on my turn swiftly (and am in fact the fastest to do so most rounds as I don't have any real decisions to make.)

I think that's part of the point, really. There's different orders of (sub-)classes, there's training-wheels sub-classes like the Champion or Berserker, intermediate classes like Rogue & the rest of barbarian & fighter, maybe Pally & ranger, sophomore classes like Warlock, Sorcerer, & Bard, and the Advanced Classes: Cleric, Druid, & Wizard. (Roughly corresponding to Class Tiers, really.)

You just picked a class that was too far below your grade.

 

[Don Durito]

I think that's part of the point, really. There's different orders of (sub-)classes, there's training-wheels sub-classes like the Champion or Berserker, intermediate classes like Rogue & the rest of barbarian & fighter, maybe Pally & ranger, sophomore classes like Warlock, Sorcerer, & Bard, and the Advanced Classes: Cleric, Druid, & Wizard. (Roughly corresponding to Class Tiers, really.)

You just picked a class that was too far below your grade.

That's true. But it came as a surprise as I'm not used to thinking of rogues as 'simple' - especially not the Arcane Trickster (I thought the spells might offer options - but not much - they're too low level to be worth giving up a sneak attack - the most effective use to be made of them is repeatedly casting shield if I get hit and the occasional fog cloud to obscure parts of the battlefield.)

Certainly, the Paladin feels like it plays a lot closer to a 4E class.

 

[Tony Vargas]

That's true. But it came as a surprise as I'm not used to thinking of rogues as 'simple' - especially not the Arcane Trickster (I thought the spells might offer options - but not much - they're too low level to be worth giving up a sneak attack - the most effective use to be made of them is repeatedly casting shield if I get hit and the occasional fog cloud to obscure parts of the battlefield.)

Rogues have gotten steadily simpler from 3e, when SA was introduced it was easier to get than the old Backstab, and it's become more and more dependable and easier to set up.
And, yeah, spells are the main source of meaningful mechanical options in play, but low-level spells (relative to your level) are not supposed to be as impactful, if they were, full casters would just be overwhelming (and overwhelmed). Thus, by the time you get a given spell as a 1/3 caster it's already semi-obsolescent.

 

[Fenris-77]

I don't mind having to do a little work to get SA off. As a GM I'm not enormously strict about it either, as I run probably 2/3 of my combats without a grid. The different Rogue subclasses play pretty differently in combat too, so being a little more granular might be helpful.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Unclear - are you suggesting this is a feature or a bug, that mobs are always a threat?

To me, it's a feature; and a very strong one.

Neither. Mobs have always been a threat if you play a nat 20 always hits. They always have been, always will be, 5E did nothing new in that respect IMO.

Level matters a great deal. Look at the difference between 1st level spells and 9th, or between 12 hps and 200. 5e contracted the scaling of checks as an over-reaction to the numbers gaps of 3e (when 4e had already reigned in the gap between maxxed & untrained, in- and cross- class to the simple +5 of 'trained'), but, it restored spell progression to traditional levels and scales hit points more dramatically than ever.

It matters a lot more than with skills, which is what we were discussing. Not spells, not hp, skills... or more precisely proficiency really. 5E contracted too much. People talk about the treadmill effect between ever increasing bonuses and targets, attacks and AC, etc. but it was never an issue in the limited 3E I played so I don't get why people were so against it. And the reason it scales HP more than ever is because it nerfed AC so that players can get hit forever before they go down.

It didn't solve much IMO, just traded one issue for another. Have you noticed the posts about HP bloat being an issue for some people? Probably about the same number of people who complained about the treadmill effect in prior editions.