D&D 5E Am I no longer WoTC's target audience?

[Zardnaar]

Toss a coin to your Witcher...

Exactly the downtime rules also cover that.

That's my wife's new ringtone. Gets stuck in your head.

 

[Fenris-77]

Exactly the downtime rules also cover that.

That's my wife's new ringtone. Gets stuck in your head.

My goodness yes, it's quite earworm-y.

I really like an element of intolerance for a PC race in the right game. There's a lot of juicy narrative potential and some excellent role playing opportunities for the whole party. In a game where I'd like the focus to be elsewhere though it seems like a chore. I guess what I'm advocating for is bespoke party composition.

 

[pemerton]

Drow for example exist on Greyhawk, so do Cambions so Tieflings aren't a huge leap.

Should they be allowed as pkayer races though?

<snip>

I might Allie a Drow i Tiefling on Greyhawk but they would have to be careful and a high charisma or disguise would help

Dragonborn are right out along with anything that's not done form of human blooded. Goblins exist but not available as a PC race, I don't mind goblin OCs on other settings though.

A party of a Drow, Tiefling, Dragonborn, Half Orc, Lizardman and Goblin for example probably wouldn't go over well on Greyhawk or Ravenloft and I wouldn't allow it in any event..

There's no bar in GH as published on playing a half-orc PC. One of the classic GH PCs (I think Robilar) had an orc (not half-orc) henchman.

Whether or not a tiefling or dragonborn PC would need a disguse or high CHA, or should be "allowed" or not, seems a completely different thing. What sort of campaign is being played. Are the PCs a strikeforce from the Great Kingdom trying to overthrow the ruling house of Nyrond? (I've played a GH game in which the PCs were a Great Kingdom strike force, although they never undertook that particular mission). Are they trying to ally with the Knights of Holy Shielding?

That is quite independent of whether or not these beings exist in the campaign setting.

I miss the play style where drow are taboo and will be killed on sight. It makes my stomach cringe to see a PC playing the watered down drow allowed today.

Well, if that's what you want to play then you're welcome to play it. I don't know quite where it comes from - the first adventure to feature drow, namely G3 and then the D-series, assumes that the PCs will reach at least some temporary alliances with at least some drow.

And Gygax's Monster Manual says this about the drow (p 39):

The “Black Elves,” or drow, are only legend. They purportedly dwell deep beneath the surface in a strange subterranean realm. The drow are said to be as dark as faeries are bright and as evil as the latter are good. Tales picture them as weak fighters but strong magic-users.​

Faeries in this context means grey elves, who are described (on the same page) as:

noble elves . . . the rarest and most powerful of their kind. They are more intelligent than other sorts . . . very reclusive, live in isolated meadowlands, and never associate with any other humanoids, other than elves, for long - or with frequency.​

Their alignment is (by default from the elf entry) chaotic good.

Just as grey elves aren't angels, and might be participants in intrigue or even sometimes opponents, so drow (who are as evil as grey elves are good) aren't devils, and might be participants in intrigue or sometimes even allies - before we get to the occasional renegade drow.

Also, what's watered down about this:

My 4e campaign featured a drow sorcerer PC - as per the player-authored backstory he was a member of the Order of the Bat, a group of Corellon-worshipping drow who seek to undo the sundering of the elves and bring their brethren back to the surface world. He would sing lays (maybe laments?) of walking under the starlight; sometime in mid-heroic, and again in epic, the PC multi-classed as a bard. (On the way through he was, via retraining, also multiclassed as a cutthroat - a sort of assassin prestige class - and as a drow-fu-using monk.)

Around 29th level he achieved his goal - Lolth was killed and the Underdark was destroyed, but many drow were led back to the surface world.

 

[Zardnaar]

There's no bar in GH as published on playing a half-orc PC. One of the classic GH PCs (I think Robilar) had an orc (not half-orc) henchman.

Whether or not a tiefling or dragonborn PC would need a disguse or high CHA, or should be "allowed" or not, seems a completely different thing. What sort of campaign is being played. Are the PCs a strikeforce from the Great Kingdom trying to overthrow the ruling house of Nyrond? (I've played a GH game in which the PCs were a Great Kingdom strike force, although they never undertook that particular mission). Are they trying to ally with the Knights of Holy Shielding?

That is quite independent of whether or not these beings exist in the campaign setting.

Well, if that's what you want to play then you're welcome to play it. I don't know quite where it comes from - the first adventure to feature drow, namely G3 and then the D-series, assumes that the PCs will reach at least some temporary alliances with at least some drow.

And Gygax's Monster Manual says this about the drow (p 39):

The “Black Elves,” or drow, are only legend. They purportedly dwell deep beneath the surface in a strange subterranean realm. The drow are said to be as dark as faeries are bright and as evil as the latter are good. Tales picture them as weak fighters but strong magic-users.​

Faeries in this context means grey elves, who are described (on the same page) as:

noble elves . . . the rarest and most powerful of their kind. They are more intelligent than other sorts . . . very reclusive, live in isolated meadowlands, and never associate with any other humanoids, other than elves, for long - or with frequency.​

Their alignment is (by default from the elf entry) chaotic good.

Just as grey elves aren't angels, and might be participants in intrigue or even sometimes opponents, so drow (who are as evil as grey elves are good) aren't devils, and might be participants in intrigue or sometimes even allies - before we get to the occasional renegade drow.

Also, what's watered down about this:

They keep watering the Drow down mechanically each edition.

What we're left with is barely worth calling a Drow. That and they kinda suck mechanically.

 

[pemerton]

A drow, tiefling, dragonborn, half-orc, lizardman, and goblin could work just fine in Grayhawk. I admit, I don't know much about GH outside of Hommlet and the Temple of Elemental Evil areas (despite the game being a rather big flop, I still enjoyed playing that CRPG), but isn't there an area where the more monstrous races "rule" in roving hordes? I swear I saw a an old AD&D (1e? maybe was 2e) book that had a map made from the viewpoint of the orcs or such. Been too long since I saw that thing before the owner moved away. But that detail (the map with names of areas from an orc's viewpoint). Could have a campaign set in something like that, and it doesn't even have to be an evil campaign.

Edit: The Orcs of Thar is what I was thinking of. GAZ10 The Orcs of Thar (Basic) - Wizards of the Coast | D&D Basic | AD&D 1st Ed. | Dungeon Masters Guild

Orcs of Thar is for the Known World, not GH.

But GH has multiple areas where humanoids rule: Iuz, the Horned Society, the Pomarj, the Bone March.

 

[pemerton]

And elf, a dwarf, a halfling or gnome, all fine with me, traditional fantasy fare.

Halflings are traditional only in the sense that JRRT is a huge influence on D&D's tropes. Gnomes in the D&D sense aren't traditional to anything but D&D as far as I'm aware.

 

[pemerton]

So, within Greyhawk, having a party that’s made up of non-human members that are typically considered evil might serve as a nice change of pace from the typical Greyhawk party.

Maybe each is an outcast from their own society and they’ve banded together as a kind of makeshift family. They’re wandering mercenaries doing the jobs no other groups are willing to do.

This reminded me that, at least canonically, GH also has "mongrelmen". Not my favourite Monster Manual entry, but seems relevant to the current discussion.

 

[pemerton]

They keep watering the Drow down mechanically each edition.

What we're left with is barely worth calling a Drow. That and they kinda suck mechanically.

I think Drow are defined more by their place in the fiction than their stats. To quote Gygax again,

The “Black Elves,” or drow, are only legend. They purportedly dwell deep beneath the surface in a strange subterranean realm. The drow are said to be as dark as faeries are bright and as evil as the latter are good. Tales picture them as weak fighters but strong magic-users​

If I ran gritty old school GH with randoms I would advertise it as such and point it out session 0.

Well, as I already posted, in the oldest school GH one of the PCs had an orc henchman.

And looking through the Rogues Gallery - also pretty old school - I discovered the following:

Phoebus (Player: Jeff R Leason)
Phoebus is presently a lizard man but certainly has not been this all of his career. Originally a fighter, Phoebus rose to 10th level before he was slain. A cleric being unavailable, a druid was prevailed upon to perform a reincarnation. . . .

He is the source of wonderment to those who are unfamiliar with him. . . . When most expect lizard men to be savage and cruel, Phoebus behaves with good nature and tact. Due to the attention his own condition draws, he has learned to be tolerant of others.​

This is why I think some of what is being advocated as "GH purism" is really more like a sort of projection that is not grounded in the actual published material.

 

[Zardnaar]

I think Drow are defined more by their place in the fiction than their stats. To quote Gygax again,

The “Black Elves,” or drow, are only legend. They purportedly dwell deep beneath the surface in a strange subterranean realm. The drow are said to be as dark as faeries are bright and as evil as the latter are good. Tales picture them as weak fighters but strong magic-users​

Well, as I already posted, in the oldest school GH one of the PCs had an orc henchman.

And looking through the Rogues Gallery - also pretty old school - I discovered the following:

Phoebus (Player: Jeff R Leason)​

Phoebus is presently a lizard man but certainly has not been this all of his career. Originally a fighter, Phoebus rose to 10th level before he was slain. A cleric being unavailable, a druid was prevailed upon to perform a reincarnation. . . .​

​

He is the source of wonderment to those who are unfamiliar with him. . . . When most expect lizard men to be savage and cruel, Phoebus behaves with good nature and tact. Due to the attention his own condition draws, he has learned to be tolerant of others.​

This is why I think some of what is being advocated as "GH purism" is really more like a sort of projection that is not grounded in the actual published material.

Henchmen are still NPCs. You couldn't play an Orc.

In not claiming things don't exist. I'm saying letting PCs play anything is a bad idea for some settings.

I like variety. I'm using Midgard for example that has all sorts of new stuff in it.

That new stuff is what makes it interesting over say FR.

I think my preference is around 75% of phb races allowed what they are can vary and some options exclusive/iconic to the setting with maybe some non standard races that are available and are organically in the setting.
. I don't mind Dragonborn/Kin in Midgard and they gave a nation of their own.

They don't organically belong in FR for example although they forced it in 4E literally blowing up chunks if the world.

So they're either a minor race that exists somewhere or you shoe horn them in badly.

Using Dragonlance as an example I'm not a fan of Kender, gully Dwarves etc but they are natural parts if the setting. They have lore that fits, nation's if their own etc.

Draconians as PCs is a bad idea, Dragonborn reskinned as Draconians is even worse.

A Necromancer walking into town with an undead posse isn't going to get a great reception a villager should probably contact the nearest lord or whatever. If a party of goofballs (Drow, Orcs, Draconians, Dragonborn, fiendspawn etc) waltz in why should they get a different reception.

 

[hawkeyefan]

Henchmen are still NPCs. You couldn't play an Orc.

In not claiming things don't exist. I'm saying letting PCs play anything is a bad idea for some settings.

I like variety. I'm using Midgard for example that has all sorts of new stuff in it.

That new stuff is what makes it interesting over say FR.

I think my preference is around 75% of phb races allowed what they are can vary and some options exclusive/iconic to the setting with maybe some non standard races that are available and are organically in the setting.
. I don't mind Dragonborn/Kin in Midgard and they gave a nation of their own.

They don't organically belong in FR for example although they forced it in 4E literally blowing up chunks if the world.

So they're either a minor race that exists somewhere or you shoe horn them in badly.

Using Dragonlance as an example I'm not a fan of Kender, gully Dwarves etc but they are natural parts if the setting. They have lore that fits, nation's if their own etc.

Draconians as PCs is a bad idea, Dragonborn reskinned as Draconians is even worse.

A Necromancer walking into town with an undead posse isn't going to get a great reception a villager should probably contact the nearest lord or whatever. If a party of goofballs (Drow, Orcs, Draconians, Dragonborn, fiendspawn etc) waltz in why should they get a different reception.

Who says they should? I’d think that part of the appeal of playing such a group of characters would be in how different they’d have to go about their business.

I ran a 3E campaign when the Savage Species book came out, and all the players created some non-standard race. The party consisted of a drow, a mind-flayer, a shadovar, and a goblin. I’d call it one of the most memorable campaigns I’ve ever run.

It didn’t consist of the party walking from town to town and seeking adventure, though. This was a campaign based around these characters specifically.