D&D 5E Am I no longer WoTC's target audience?

[pemerton]

Honestly, the only Conan I've actually read is Red Nails. I was just thinking of the bit where Conan and Valeria are navigating the ruined labyrinth of jade; that scene has the atmosphere of a D&D dungeon. If that seems like a superficial resemblance to you, well, that's how the Tolkien comparisons sound to me.

I think it is helpful to distinguish tropes (which in D&D become game elements) and the actual themes, stories, "orientation" of game play.

D&D draws very heavily on JRRT tropes - they've been listed upthread. I think we disagree on the extent of that dependency - for instance, I think the comparative shortness of D&D elves is less significant than the overwhelming points of overlap (eg in addition to what's already been mentioned, there is the use of "high elves" as a term, the idea of different people among the elves where sylvan elves are the least bright and most rustic, etc).

I don't think default D&D plays much like either REH Conan or LotR. It plays more like a small unit wargame - the PCs scout, advance with caution systematically loot the dungeon, etc.

To emulate either REH or JRRT there need to be mechanical changes that make courage, risk-taking and chance possible. (And then depending how that is thematised, it might be more like REH's modernism or JRRT's somewhat reactionary romanticism.)

 

[Fenris-77]

It really sounds to me like they are trying to downplay gygax’s influence. Sorry, that just what it looks like to me.

Not at all, just his abilities as a scholar of folklore, which some people seemed to want very much to valorize. You can't really oversell Gygax's impact on gaming though, with the possible exception of willfully excluding fellows like Arneson and trying to make Gygax into some sort of solitary genius. Trying to elevate Gygax at the expense of Tolkien is a fool's errand - both men are towering giants in the field of fantasy, but for very different reasons. Why anyone would try to sell the canard that Gygax was a scholar on par with Tolkien I'm not sure, as it's obviously not the case, nor is it an important distinction.

 

[Fenris-77]

Elf Druid’s make no sense. Sidhe worship and druids were competing religions that did Not like each other. Druidism is a human religion that did not like the fair folk.

In the real world. D&D isn't a 1-1 reflection of that though. Obviously. It doesn't somehow make Elven Druids not make sense though. The class/race combo needs to make sense in the context of the game, which it does.

 

[Anoth]

In the real world. D&D isn't a 1-1 reflection of that though. Obviously. It doesn't somehow make Elven Druid's not make sense though. The class/race combo needs to make sense in the context of the game, which it does.

I agree with you. I just don’t like it. I like class/race limits to make races feel more non-human. I think that can be done quite well with archetypes in the current edition instead of classes in earlier editions.

 

[jayoungr]

D&D draws very heavily on JRRT tropes - they've been listed upthread. I think we disagree on the extent of that dependency

I wouldn't even go so far as to call them tropes; they're just surface elements that are grabbed and modified, IMO. And I should add that I don't consider this a flaw in D&D; I find the D&D versions of the things it borrows from Tolkien to be fun in their own right.

But on the topic of "dependency," it sounds like we're not going to find much common ground, so we probably should just agree to disagree.

I don't think default D&D plays much like either REH Conan or LotR. It plays more like a small unit wargame - the PCs scout, advance with caution systematically loot the dungeon, etc.

Actually, that might be our common ground.

 

[Fenris-77]

I agree with you. I just don’t like it. I like class/race limits to make races feel more non-human. I think that can be done quite well with archetypes in the current edition instead of classes in earlier editions.

Let's unpack that notion of yours a little if you don't mind, I'm curious. Can you give me an example of how you think class/race limits make races feel more non-human? It's not immediately obvious how an Elven Druid somehow feels less elven than an Elven Wizard. I'd like to hear a more complete explanation.

 

[Anoth]

Let's unpack that notion of yours a little if you don't mind, I'm curious. Can you give me an example of how you think class/race limits make races feel more non-human? It's not immediately obvious how an Elven Druid somehow feels less elven than an Elven Wizard. I'd like to hear a more complete explanation.

for one. Religion really distinguishes a culture. aa time goes on in our world religions May encompass other cultures. But they were very regional until quite recent on human history. Elves not even being human would have a vastly different cultures. Having their religions being very very different helps that imho.

mad for the other classes. i like things like the elven bladesinger, and not because of the mechanics, but because it separates them from humans.

i very much see the monk class as a human mindset. I don’t think elves and dwarves could fathom monasticism. Imho.

things along that line. And i really don’t like kitchen sink settings anymore, just tired of them. They are so black and Mos Eisley to me.

 

[Fenris-77]

Hmm, that's fair. I think we all have our own set of preferences for how to adjust all the knobs and dials 5E comes with. I don't know about you, but I tend to build these very transparently into my pitch for a campaign so there's no confusion or lingering discontent on the part of the players. I don't mind kitchen sink settings, but that doesn't mean I run kitchen sink campaigns in them either.

 

[Azzy]

Elf Druid’s make no sense. Sidhe worship and druids were competing religions that did Not like each other. Druidism is a human religion that did not like the fair folk.

Citation needed.

 

[Lanefan]

Yeah, I don't think that's a thing anymore, and RPG culture is much, much better off without that humanocentrism.

We'll flat-out have to agree to disagree on that one.

In a space-based game or setting (Traveller, Star Wars, etc.) humanocentrism doesn't make much sense. In a fantasy-earthlike game or setting (D&D and many others) it certainly does.