D&D 5E Am I no longer WoTC's target audience?

[Mecheon]

Worse than being a costume is being just a set of stat bonuses that help to min-max the character, if you ask me. If the race is just a costume, it's taken with no tangible benefits other than how you want to portray the PC and be perceived.

If you wanna min-max though, you're not gonna be going Dragonborn or Tiefling at all, or anything exotic really. You're going to go Variant Human and Half Elf. Maybe Yuan-Ti for the magic resist

 

[pemerton]

The concept of half-elves, perhaps, but not the implementation. D&D half-elves are far more common than in Tolkien, where there were, like, five of them ever. Also, D&D half-elves are midway between elves and humans in stats, while in Tolkien, they are physically indistinguishable from elves as far as we know but just potentially go to a different place when they eventually die (depending on what decision they make about that).

On the last point - Elros was not physically indistinguishable from elves, but rather chose to be human. I'm also not sure about Earendil - as a half-elf was he more evlish or human?

In any event, it's true that D&D's implementation of half-elves is different from JRRT's but that's true of most elements. All 10th level rangers, even the King of Keoland, can use palantirs. Nevertheless the derivation from JRRT is pretty transparent.

And there is nothing stopping a particular table treating half-elves as rare, or the ranger class as very distinctive - much as a GH campaign would be expected to treat open-hand monks.

But GH needn't be limited to Tolkien, and in many ways is not well-suited to it because evil in GH is somewhat diffuse rather than all the result of the Fall.

If anyone said it should be, I missed it.

There was at least one post upthread which suggested that GH should be confined to "traditional" fantasy races (by which seemed to be meant JRRT + gnomes). I am disputing that claim. I think that GH as a setting has ample room for non-JRRT humanoids, and that the issues with playing (say) a dragonborn are no different from those with playing (say) a valley elf or an open-hand monk.

Gary didn't really care for LOtR. He liked The Hobbit far better. He also didn't like Magic Users. I think this is pretty well known

What's the basis for saying that Gygax didn't like MUs. He played them (eg Mordenkainen).

rules-wise he was going more based on Earth mythology, and not Tolkien mythology

I agree with @Doug McCrae's post not too far upthread. But I'm also not sure what the contrast is you're drawing between Earth mythology and Tolkien mythology - JRRT's material is drawn from traditional folklore, but treated and developed in a way that tries to make sense of it within the context of a 19th-century style novel rather than the earlier feel of stories like Beowulf, Sir Gawain and the Green Knight, etc.

That said, D&D is much better suited to playing JRRT-type fantasy than much mythology. Eg I think it's quite hard to play an Argonauts or Iliad game in D&D, because martial PCs aren't presented in the right way for that. Which is a legacy of the game's wargaming heritage.

 

[Zardnaar]

If you wanna min-max though, you're not gonna be going Dragonborn or Tiefling at all, or anything exotic really. You're going to go Variant Human and Half Elf. Maybe Yuan-Ti for the magic resist

Tiefling variants in Mordenkainens are good.

I don't want the weak races used anyway they normally lead to frustrated players.

Weak races are usually the suspect ones anyway. Tieflings, Drow, Dragonborn.

If I allow those type of races I normally use the Mordenkainens Tieflings, Dragonkin from Midgard and Drow can suck it up I suppose.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Only NPCs, limited to 8th level. And no magic users at all.

Dwarf PCs could be Fighters, Thieves and Assassins. As fighters they were limited to 7th level unless they had exceptional strength to get to 9th.

All these restrictions of course were Gygax's desires for his setting.

Doesn't matter. Spellcasting dwarves where part of the setting, even if they where limited to one type of spells. Compare to the Dragon Age setting, where all dwarves are resistant to magic and can never cast spells of any type. Thedas outgreyhawks Greyhawk.

Anyway, I seem to recall that multiclassed dwarven cleric PCs where permitted, it was only single classed dwarf PC clerics that Gygax didn't like.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

On the last point - Elros was not physically indistinguishable from elves, but rather chose to be human. I'm also not sure about Earendil - as a half-elf was he more evlish or human?

All of Tolkien's elves and half elves where physically indistinguishable from (tall good looking) humans. Elros chose to be spiritually human, Earendil chose to be spiritually elven.

What's the basis for saying that Gygax didn't like MUs. He played them (eg Mordenkainen).

I think he was concerned about conforming to fantasy tropes, and the traditional trope was that wizards where either mentors or villains, not protagonists. PC Magic Users where a necessary evil. He saw his own character as a mentor.

 

[pemerton]

I seem to recall that multiclassed dwarven cleric PCs where permitted, it was only single classed dwarf PC clerics that Gygax didn't like.

The AD&D PHB has no dwarven clerics except as NPCs. The dwarf entry in the MM has multi-classed cleric/fighters but they are NPCs. UA changed this - and in the process unbalanced half-elven and half-orcish clerics. In the PHB these were severely level-limited but the only non-human clerics allowed - once UA opened up clerics of other demi-human races then the semi-human ones went from being the best (because only) non-human option to the worst.

 

[pemerton]

On the comparison of Gygax to JRRT, @Fenris-77 has said everything I would have said. Tolkien was an important scholar in his field who also invented the modern fantasy novel. Gygax was an influential wargamer and game designer who, together with Arneson, was a primary inventor of modern fantasy gaming. As far as I know, JRRT didn't invent any games. As far as I know, Gygax didn't make scholarly contributions to the study of folklore, languages and mythological traditions.

All of Tolkien's elves and half elves where physically indistinguishable from (tall good looking) humans.

But Sam and Frodo could straight away recognise the elves they met as elves, and the humans as humans. I think the spiritual difference is manifest. (In Burning Wheel this is the fair and statuesque trait.)

In 3rd Age Middle Earth what great deeds did elves achieve? I think it should be quite possible to have a RPG that accurately represents JRRT's elves and is still quite playable. Burning Wheel goes at least some of this way.

They accomplished nothing due to apathy, not because they weren't physically and mentally superior to men.

OK. It is quite possible for a RPG to accurately represent this and hence have Tolkien's elves be playable. But D&D is not that game.

 

[jasper]

@pemerton I struck out the ones I knew off the top of my head and with 30 seconds of thinking on it. Of course I missed striking out others. And I understand now about the difference in PC vs NPC races/classes you are making.

 

[Maxperson]

But Sam and Frodo could straight away recognise the elves they met as elves, and the humans as humans. I think the spiritual difference is manifest. (In Burning Wheel this is the fair and statuesque trait.)

It's likely that they had the pointed, leaf shaped ears of the movies.

"Whether Elvish ears were pointed or not is open for speculation, but it should be noted that there are no explicit references to pointed Elvish ears in The Hobbit, The Lord of the Rings or The Silmarillion.

In the Etymologies (a linguistic manuscript from ca. 1937-8 published posthumously) is stated that "the Quendian ears were more pointed and leaf-shaped than Human." In another linguistic manuscript (from ca. 1959-60), the Elvish connection between ears and leaves is again noted: "Amon Lhaw. ¶SLAS-, ear. las, leaf. slasū > Q hlaru, S lhaw."

Answering to a question on Hobbit ears, Tolkien wrote that these were "only slightly pointed and 'elvish'". Some fans take this to mean that Elvish ears were pointed, while others argue that it is an ambiguous statement."

Elven characteristics

The Elves were the fairest creatures in Arda, a far more beautiful race than Men, and generally tall (seldom less than six feet for elf women, no less than six and...

tolkiengateway.net

 

[JeffB]

What's the basis for saying that Gygax didn't like MUs. He played them (eg Mordenkainen).

Rather than me citing all kinds of stuff, this is easier.