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What is the best Chassis for a 5e Warlord class?

  • Artificer

    Votes: 2 3.2%
  • Bard

    Votes: 25 40.3%
  • Barbarian

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Cleric

    Votes: 8 12.9%
  • Fighter

    Votes: 28 45.2%
  • Monk

    Votes: 4 6.5%
  • Paladin

    Votes: 11 17.7%
  • Ranger

    Votes: 3 4.8%
  • Rogue

    Votes: 2 3.2%
  • Sorcerer

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Druid

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Wizard

    Votes: 1 1.6%
  • Warlock

    Votes: 9 14.5%

The wizard was hardly light on class features - it had cantrips, implement mastery, rituals, power-swapping through it's spellbook - it was just hard to pin down how it's features supported it's Role. In the final analysis, I think, it's role support was mainly just in having OP dailies & AE at-wills. ;)
It wasn't lacking in class features them 4e non-combat cantrips were being looked at greedily by many and even martial concepts for them were bouncing around. But yes until essentials you barely seen role reinforcing class features for wizards and since they were kind of pasted on well... you know how that goes.
 

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Having a class feature that fits your role is actually valuable in showing hey this is what I do. Essentials actually did some of that (while forgetting the base spells were already more powerful). More than that many things could have been increased in control causing the base class to better express what it did. Then one could choose to pull it the other direction say with feats like ones to make your fire burn hotter for instance it could have allowed one to remove control effects (granted by class features) to gain more damage. Similar to how a ranger could take a feat and increase their control factor at the price of striker feature.
Eh, it’s still preparing spells, though, which is close enough.

but the 4e Wizard was less beholden to the past, and more used it to do something genuinely unique in the system. Also, it’s not like implements did different things like they do in 4e, in any other edition. That was brand new. And a missed opportunity in 5e, IMO. I’d love to see different implements do different things.

Anyway, I always found the controller role pretty clear. Make the fight easier for the team by managing the whole battlefield and locking down enemies, thus keeping the team more safe and enabling better focus fire tactics. The wizard is very good at this.

Thing is that in 4e it was clear that each role had a signature ability: Defenders could apply marks, Leaders had the Healing Word equivalent and Strikers had a way to increase damage to a specific target they selected.

Controllers never got a similar feature so it always felt off for me.
 

A. Hey, I've got a cantrip!

B. Me too!

A. Mine does 1d6, but then 2d6 (level 5), 3d6 (level 11), and 4d6 (level 17).

B. Me too!

A. Well, with mine the target has to save.

B. Me too!

A. Fine, mine is thunder damage, CON save.

B. I refluffed it to DEX save, poison.

A. What? Fine, since you barely changed it ....

B. Okay, fine. Mine is one or two targets, up to 60'.

A. Great! Mine is all the critters, but only 5'.

B. Done, and done.

I mean, sure, Different. I guess. Look, I'm not trying to convince you. AFAIC, it's the Warlock, and 5 other full casters that are basically the same thing and mostly cast the same dang spells.
I mean, that’s fine, it’s just kind of an oversimplified analysis. It’s basically, “they’re both spells, as such, so it doesn’t matter how different they actually are in practical gameplay terms.”

And if that’s how you see it or feel about, that’s fine, its just...they objectively aren’t casting the same spell. There are spells that are very similar, sure, but if we don’t cherry pick such examples...I don’t understand how one can see Firebolt and Word of Radiance and Chill Touch as “the same”. Especially as a thing that makes all the full casters (except warlock?) all somehow play the same, when their actual abilities literally do very different things.

I’m genuinely trying to understand what your (and others) POV even is, here, not call it wrong or put it down or anything. It just confuses me.

Best I can figure, from your posts ITT, it’s something along the lines of...

How the class is organized matters more than what the specific abilities do in determining how different two classes are.

is that right?

because IMO a sorcerer with long range blaster cantrips and some utility spells, using meta magic mostly to boost damage, is vastly more similar to a warlock than to a wizard. The idea that the warlock stands apart is just...wild, to me.

It’s a full caster, with scaling damage cantrips and ninth level spells and some quirky add on features. That stands apart from the bard and sorcerer because it rations it’s spells slots differently? Like, I agree there is a meaningful difference there, but it isn’t any greater than prepared vs known spells, and is a much less impactful difference than having spell lists with fairly small overlap.
 

Thing is that in 4e it was clear that each role had a signature ability: Defenders could apply marks, Leaders had the Healing Word equivalent and Strikers had a way to increase damage to a specific target they selected.

Controllers never got a similar feature so it always felt off for me.
I mean, I guess there is a symmetry thing there? Beyond that, why does it matter? They accomplished their role.
 

They accomplished their role.
In Soviet Russia, Role Accomplish YOU!
Thing is that in 4e it was clear that each role had a signature ability: Defenders could apply marks, Leaders had the Healing Word equivalent and Strikers had a way to increase damage to a specific target they selected.
Controllers never got a similar feature so it always felt off for me.
Those were signature role-support features, sure, but they also got support in their powers &c, as well. Most of the class was pointed at the role. The same was true of the Wizard, the class features just weren't as clear & strong a role support as the spells. With the Warlord, the role support wasn't just the Inspiring Word - the Presence feature was support - triggered by the choices made by the ally - the initiative bonus was support, and their power selections were full of bonus- & action- granting. It was kinda all-in on it's role, unlike the Cleric which had grandfathered-in Turn Undead that was more controller-like than leader.

But, 5e stepped pretty far back from formal roles, the cleric can prettymuch be a controller, and eschew traditional healing & buffing, just based on the spells it prepares that day. It seems like that's needed with a 5e support class - it's not enough to just bonus-action-heal and whack an enemy with your mace - when your party needs support, you need to bring it, big, but when it doesn't right at the moment, you need to contribute meaningfully, too.
 


But, 5e stepped pretty far back from formal roles, the cleric can prettymuch be a controller, and eschew traditional healing & buffing, just based on the spells it prepares that day. It seems like that's needed with a 5e support class - it's not enough to just bonus-action-heal and whack an enemy with your mace - when your party needs support, you need to bring it, big, but when it doesn't right at the moment, you need to contribute meaningfully, too.
If you can leverage role flexibility into the Fighter well why not?
 



Not exactly.

Again, it is entirely possible that we will just have ... different opinions on this. Which is fine! Sometimes, people just have different likes, dislikes, and "the feels" about certain things.

But let me use an analogy for you. Don't know if this predates you a little, but back in the day, GM had a lot of car divisions. It had Pontiac, and Oldsmobile, and Buick, and Caddy, and Chevy, and Saturn, and Holden, and Vauxhall, and so on and so forth.

And, of course, someone at GM had the great cost-saving idea of making a bunch of cars on, basically, the same platform. We'll have one car, and give it sporty accents (Pontiac), or upscale (Buick), or rich (Caddy) or nothing (Chevy) or Australian (Holden), etc., in order to save money AND sell to as many markets as possible.

And it worked! For a while. But here's the thing. If you were spending the money to buy a Caddy, how would you feel if you noticed that it was awfully similar to your neighbor's Chevy? And what, exactly, is the Oldsmobile brand? What kind of differentiation is there, really? Yes, there were difference between them, but because of the underlying structural similarities, there was a lack of meaningful differentiation that caused them all to feel same-y.

....and that's how I feel about spellcasters, and 5e. They feel very same-y to me. And there's a lot of reasons that go into this. These include, but are not limited to, the following:

1. Overlapping spell lists. Okay, so maybe the ye olde 1e PHB was a little overboard, by having each caster have its spells in its own section .... but maybe not! Meaningful differentiation doesn't mean, "Most spells are the same, but hey, you get a few different ribbons!" To me it means that each full caster class gets a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT LIST OF SPELLS, with minimal overlap (a few utilities that they might have in common, like a fly spell- and honestly, they each could have their own).

2. Too mix-n-match. Ritual spellcasting. Cantrips. Everything is available easily through either multi-class, subclass, or feat. To the extent that there is meaningful class differentiation (there isn't), you can easily get whatever you want from any other class.

3. What does it even mean, Basil? What, Wizards are "versatile" and "prepared" and sorcerers are "spontaneous" and "natural." I mean, sure. Whatever. Now that we've moved to neo-Vancian spell casting, they are pretty much the same thing, with a different stat. If you ask me, here's the difference. Want to multiclass with a charisma class? Sorcerer. Don't? Wizard.

4. All effects are measured by spells. Magic items. other class abilities, almost everything is expressed in terms of spells. So ... okay. There's a lot of it.

5. Cantrips are terribly boring. Pew pew pew. You can look at them, and refluff 'em as you want. But it both makes cantrips terrible, and has the additional added effect of making higher-level damage spells terrible as well.

6. Lack of mechanical differentiation. The Warlock? Short rest + invocation ... that's different. Everyone else? It's the same. Overlapping spells, overlapping casting abilities, overlapping mechanics.



Now, I understand that people can appreciate the differences and enjoy them. That's great! But the simplified and unified mechanic to achieve balance around spells and spellcasting makes me think of choosing between casting classes as if I was choosing between an 80s Buick and an 80s Oldsmobile. I mean, sure, they are different. I guess.
So, I don’t want to keep going round and round, we obviously both play 5e and feel very differently about the classes therein, and that’s fine.

but to me, to use cars again, you’re basically saying that because the 61 Mercury Comet and the 62 Chevy Impala are both sedans, they’re literally the same thing with a different logo and name. And they...just aren’t. But even that doesn’t quite get at how different they are.

while, again, some spells or cantrips are very similar, the fact that Eldritch blast and vicious mockery are both cantrips is their only meaningful similarity. Beyond that, they’re exactly as similar as either one is to shooting a bow.

I just...try this out. Remove cantrips from the cleric. Instead, they have a class feature called Divine Beacon that they gain at level 1.

As an action, you can raise your holy symbol and speak words of prayer or quote sacred text. When you do, you choose to do one of the following;

Illuminate. Light shines forth from your holy symbol. [describe radius of light, etc]

Rebuke. All creatures of your choice, and any undead or fiends, within 5ft of you must succeed on a dexterity saving throw or take X radiant damage. Also if they fail, they must move 10ft away from you as a reaction. [a mini turn feature]

Envelope. One creature who can see and hear you within 100ft must make a constitution saving throw or become the source of your divine beacon for a time. If they fail, they shed bright light in a 20ft radius until the start of your next turn, and take X radiant damage.

Now, at level 5, each of these is improved. Then at 8, you get to chose between these being buffed or your weapon attacks being buffed. At some later level, it all gets buffed. Let’s say it’s not the same levels as wizard cantrip buffs

Is that more different, for you, than what is currently the case?

for me, it’s exactly the same difference in the moment when I use the abilities in game, so it’s no more or less different. It seems like for others, possibly including you, the fact that it looks more different on the character sheet makes it meaningfully more different.

if that’s about right, I’ll be perfectly satisfied that I at least understand the other side of the discussion.
 

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