D&D 5E Swordmage! (+thread)

[Garthanos]

1. Renaissance (almost science) Guy sounds to me like quite a different concept than is being designed by OP. This concept could work but feels a little conceptually weak IMO.

The renaissance science comes from the Thibaults Mysterious circle reference the OP has made a few times they were very much a broadly educated group that took intellectual take on their combat recorded Techniques in books and considered mathematics etc to be just as important as physical training.

2. Having 2 skills from the class already allows for a mix of physical and mental skills.

The swordmage should have Arcana and acrobatics or athletics and perhaps investigation/medicine. just as much as a Ranger should have Nature and Survival and perhaps Stealth.

Shrug It's not actually my boat to row but I can see the desire for 3 as having conceptual foundations

If I were shooting for a more true Thibaults flavor Investigation would be the primary skill with which they analyse their opponents and the battlefield and have it doing more things for them

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

Swordmage is Renaissance (almost science) Guy and so some of his skills will and should be physical along side the mental ones is that a rational that works,?

I think that the question is more to do with the class getting an unusually high number of skill slots rather than the range of skills that it can choose from.
DBW has reiterated quite . . . emphatically that it is a scholar class like the Wizard with access to the Ritual Casting ability rather than a more martial or skill-inclined class. Hence you would expect a similar number of skill slots to the wizard, with rituals covering some of the out-of-combat utility that a class would otherwise use skills for.

1. Renaissance (almost science) Guy sounds to me like quite a different concept than is being designed by OP. This concept could work but feels a little conceptually weak IMO.

I believe that part of the concept of the class is from some of the renaissance fencing schools. These were generally grounded in solid martial principles, but with a layer of mysticism or mathematics (science!) layered over it to hide some of the secret principles of the specific school, and to appeal to the fads of the time. (Like someone might slap "Ninja!" on something in the 1980s-90s.)

So you have longsword schools that use a poem as a mnemonic device to help an initiate remember the principles, but which would not make sense to anyone else.
Or the fencing school mentioned which derived its principles of distance and movement from the proportions of the user. - Distance between feet for the stance should be this geometrical derivation, for a lunge should be that etc.
(Also included: A serious level of passive-aggressive snark regarding how long a sword should be. Thibault was Not a Fan of the trend towards increasing sword length of the time.)

To the uninitiated, these principles, and science in general would be lumped together with magic as part of Natural Law. Hence why you could romanticise it into a magical class in a similar way that earlier medieval knights were romanticised to have supernatural powers derived from their faith leading to D&D's paladin, and the warriors of the Orient becoming Monks.

2. Having 2 skills from the class already allows for a mix of physical and mental skills.

Yep. Plus backgrounds.

I'd want to see a little more right now. Assuming it's a null-caster, it's got a basic fighter chassis with a scaling armor feature and the tome warlock special invocation. The Aegis and the point based maneuvers are doing a lot of undefined work, so it's difficult to evaluate without a little more flesh there.

Maybe more like a Fighter with the Ritual Caster (Wizard) Feat as one of its bonus feats.

 

[FrogReaver]

Sorry if I was a bit harsh in reply, I just get frustrated with how hard it is to just post a premise and goal and have a thread that focuses on realizing the goal, and ppl that don’t like the goal just...not bothering me about that fact.

If you are referring to me -
I'm in favor of having both a magic ritual based sword fighting class and a shroud using warrior type class.

The biggest part of your pushback IMO has been on your inflexibility you have with names. Consider what the difference would have been if you had opened the thread with, "I want a class with these mechanics that meet these design goals. These are my fictional sources of inspiritaon. I'm thinking I may call the class X but not really interested in the name at the moment". Half the thread instantly leaving more room in the early pages of it for your creation.

 

[FrogReaver]

I think that the question is more to do with the class getting an unusually high number of skill slots rather than the range of skills that it can choose from.
DBW has reiterated quite . . . emphatically that it is a scholar class like the Wizard with access to the Ritual Casting ability rather than a more martial or skill-inclined class. Hence you would expect a similar number of skill slots to the wizard, with rituals covering some of the out-of-combat utility that a class would otherwise use skills for.

Thank you for putting that into better words than I could.

I believe that part of the concept of the class is from some of the renaissance fencing schools. These were generally grounded in solid martial principles, but with a layer of mysticism or mathematics (science!) layered over it to hide some of the secret principles of the specific school, and to appeal to the fads of the time. (Like someone might slap "Ninja!" on something in the 1980s-90s.)

So you have longsword schools that use a poem as a mnemonic device to help an initiate remember the principles, but which would not make sense to anyone else.
Or the fencing school mentioned which derived its principles of distance and movement from the proportions of the user. - Distance between feet for the stance should be this geometrical derivation, for a lunge should be that etc.
(Also included: A serious level of passive-aggressive snark regarding how long a sword should be. Thibault was Not a Fan of the trend towards increasing sword length of the time.)

Thanks for the background. That's making it come together a bit more.

Yep. Plus backgrounds.

Yep. Backgrounds and feats allow for most any character to be a renassiance man type conception.

Maybe more like a Fighter with the Ritual Caster (Wizard) Feat as one of its bonus feats.

I think right now maybe there are too many competing ideas of what this class concept entails. It's almost making for a class that can "do everything" instead of a class with focused abilities.

Right now it's a - good at fighting class, good at skills class, good at magic and magical rituals class.

 

[TwoSix]

Of the 12 classes in the game only 3 have more than 2 skills. There is a strong reason for each of those starting with more than the baseline of skills. Bards and Rogues have been skill experts in prior editions. Rangers identity has always been the wilderness guy so it makes sense to give them a little broader skill base in outdoorsmen and nature type skills.

Yep, agreed. To be brief, any new homebrew class should have two skills unless there's a compelling reason in the concept to do otherwise. There's no correlation between Intelligence and skills in 5e; being studious and scholarly should define the type of skills that are available, it should have no influence on the breadth.

 

[Garthanos]

being studious and scholarly should define the type of skills that are available, it should have no influence on the breadth.

Thing is I don't know for certain but I suspect it is not seeing this as just studious it is studious and athletic the idea is a merger of the physical and mental and that does in my opinion influence breadth. It's kind of a definition of breadth having widely disparate kind of education not just widely separate options but ones that are used in the art itself.

When I made a thibaults build for 4e it had some real reasons to be trained in healing and those were incorporated into how it did its damage (see Sherlock holmes with RDJ as an example of that flavor)

Perhaps the Striker archetype might get an additional skill in medicine?

 

[TwoSix]

Thing is I don't know for certain but I suspect it is not seeing this as just studious it is studious and athletic the idea is a merger of the physical and mental and that does in my opinion influence breadth. It's kind of a definition of breadth having widely disparate kind of education not just widely separate options but ones that are used in the art itself.

When I made a thibaults build for 4e it had some real reasons to be trained in healing and those were incorporated into how it did its damage (see Sherlock holmes with RDJ as an example of that flavor)

Perhaps the Striker archetype might get an additional skill in medicine?

If the goal for the class is to demonstrate that the character has a breadth of knowledge from a multitude of different training regimens, then sure, I could get behind 3 class skills.

A possible compromise approach might be 2 proficiencies to start, and then an additional specific skill gained from the subclass at level 3.

 

[FrogReaver]

If the goal for the class is to demonstrate that the character has a breadth of knowledge from a multitude of different training regimens, then sure, I could get behind 3 class skills.

A possible compromise approach might be 2 proficiencies to start, and then an additional specific skill gained from the subclass at level 3.

I would think Jack of All trades would be the perfect renassaince man type feature. 2 skills and jack of all trades from the bard would be my suggestion.

I like the additional skill for the subclass idea.

 

[Garthanos]

I would think Jack of All trades would be the perfect renassaince man type feature. 2 skills and jack of all trades from the bard would be my suggestion.

I like the additional skill for the subclass idea.

Both seem good thoughts.

 

[FrogReaver]

If the goal for the class is to demonstrate that the character has a breadth of knowledge from a multitude of different training regimens, then sure, I could get behind 3 class skills.

A possible compromise approach might be 2 proficiencies to start, and then an additional specific skill gained from the subclass at level 3.

I keep coming back to this fear:

Is this a class that is presumably as good as a fighter in combat in nearly all aspects (probably much better than him in others), that has more skills, that can perform magical rituals and cast spells?

If so, isn't that too much?