D&D 5E Arcane and Divine Magic

GameOgre

Adventurer
One thing I dislike about 5E is the blurring between these two magic types. There used to be a certain amount of Niche Protection. There was a clear way arcane and divine powers were not only used but gained.

Divine Magic came from the Gods or Godlike forces and you had to have faith to use it.. Arcane magic came from the universe itself and you learned how to use it.

Now it's all mixed up. Some arcane users also can just cast divine magic spells exactly like arcane magic spells and some Divine Casters can just cast arcane magic spells the exact same way as Divine spells.

At the same time many of the casters are exactly like it was before. There is no longer any internal D&D world reasoning for anything. It's just all because. Sorcerers can just resurrect and heal the same as clerics and some clerics are throw around fireballs left and right.

If a bard casts a healing spell with no faith and no other power behind it..why can't a Wizard?
 

log in or register to remove this ad

I dont think there was a lot of deep thinking involved in 5e's magic.

To add to your example, it makes no sense that wizards not only cant use arcane resurgence (or whatever its called) on anything above a 6th level slot, but also can onoy cast 1 7th, 1 8th, and 1 9th level spell slot per day.

They say "derrr, no one is playing above level 15, must be peolle just dont like longer campaigns ever. EVER!"...i wonder, could it have something to do with this weird tendancy to cut classes off below the knees later in levels (moreso with wizard than most) and that people dont find that fun?

But as far as the seperations of magic goes, as with many things, the stories/lore of 5e are really low brow. As such the ideas about cosmic forces like magic and how they work are less complexly structured and detailed and also the balancing of the magic classes is lazy and a paradoxical mix of restrictive with a dearth of exclusivity. Also the grand daddy of magic users in d&d seems to have been restricted uniquely without much thought given to it.

Granted all of the above ia just my opinion. I could be wrong. Dont think i am though.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
One thing I dislike about 5E is the blurring between these two magic types. There used to be a certain amount of Niche Protection. There was a clear way arcane and divine powers were not only used but gained.

Divine Magic came from the Gods or Godlike forces and you had to have faith to use it.. Arcane magic came from the universe itself and you learned how to use it.

Now it's all mixed up. Some arcane users also can just cast divine magic spells exactly like arcane magic spells and some Divine Casters can just cast arcane magic spells the exact same way as Divine spells.

At the same time many of the casters are exactly like it was before. There is no longer any internal D&D world reasoning for anything. It's just all because. Sorcerers can just resurrect and heal the same as clerics and some clerics are throw around fireballs left and right.

If a bard casts a healing spell with no faith and no other power behind it..why can't a Wizard?

Space saving. They didn't want the PHB to be 30 more pages of spells.

They gave the light cleric fireball rather than create searing light.

That's why I think 6e should start with 5 books

  1. Player's Handbook - PC info and core iconic spells
  2. Dungeon Master's Guide- DM and core iconic magic items and traps
  3. Monster Manual- Monsters
  4. Spellcaster Tome- All the other spells. Categorized by genre and class.
  5. Ledger of Loot- All the other magic items. Finally magical polearms.
 

Shiroiken

Legend
Casters access magic in different ways. Bards call upon the power of music, clerics (and possibly druids, paladins, and rangers) call upon a deity to grant the magic, while wizards and sorcerers tap directly into the source of magic. Warlocks are a bit weird, but I view them as taping into the source through their patron, so half-way between clerics and wizards.

Because of this, certain types of magic may not be available, depending on how it's accessed. A deity or patron may choose not to grant fireball (for reasons beyond mortal understanding), while directly tapping into the source of magic may not allow healing magics. A subclass can violate these rules for various reasons based on the description of the subclass.
 

One thing I dislike about 5E is the blurring between these two magic types. There used to be a certain amount of Niche Protection. There was a clear way arcane and divine powers were not only used but gained.

Divine Magic came from the Gods or Godlike forces and you had to have faith to use it.. Arcane magic came from the universe itself and you learned how to use it.

Now it's all mixed up. Some arcane users also can just cast divine magic spells exactly like arcane magic spells and some Divine Casters can just cast arcane magic spells the exact same way as Divine spells.

At the same time many of the casters are exactly like it was before. There is no longer any internal D&D world reasoning for anything. It's just all because. Sorcerers can just resurrect and heal the same as clerics and some clerics are throw around fireballs left and right.

If a bard casts a healing spell with no faith and no other power behind it..why can't a Wizard?
First off, 2E was the only edition where bards couldn't cast healing spells (and even then they could fake it sometimes), so I'm not sure what you're complaining about at this late date.

But to dig deeper, there is officially no such thing as "arcane magic" and "divine magic" in 5E. It doesn't help to look at cure wounds and think, "That's a divine spell, so when the bard, an arcane caster, casts it, they're casting divine magic!" That's just not true. It's a bard spell, a cleric spell, a druid spell, a paladin spell, and a ranger spell, but those classes don't fall under a common "divine" umbrella. You may lament the loss, but really, look at what you had to do to define "divine magic" in your own words: "Gods or Godlike forces". That's kind of a shoehorn, isn't it? The natural forces that druids and rangers draw from are very different than the gods that clerics draw from. 4E made this explicit by labeling it the "primal" power source; 5E is content just to let every class stand as its own implicit source.

So if you're, say, a sorcerer, you can do the things on the sorcerer spell list because those are the things that sorcerous magic -- not arcane or divine magic, sorcerous magic -- is good at. The sorcerer spell list has no intrinsic relation to the wizard spell list because sorcerous magic is not the same thing as wizardly magic. Which is really obvious from the flavor of the classes; frankly it's astounding that in 3E sorcerers did share the wizard list.

To add to your example, it makes no sense that wizards not only cant use arcane resurgence (or whatever its called) on anything above a 6th level slot, but also can onoy cast 1 7th, 1 8th, and 1 9th level spell slot per day.
If you take a second look, you will notice that there is a structural difference in 5E between spells of 5th level or lower -- what we might call "low magic" -- and spells of 6th level or higher -- what we might call "high magic". You seem to be complaining about the wizard class specifically, but this is a consistent pattern across all the classes: you see the same 5th-level limit again and again. Half-casters, of course, max out at 5th. The Land druid has functionally the same feature as Arcane Recovery. The sorcerer can't create slots above 5th with spell points. Clerics only get domain spells up to 5th. And most blatantly of all, the warlock's entire spellcasting system reconfigures for spells above 5th. When a class stops advancing its regular magical abilities and starts gaining a special new power called "Mystic Arcana", do you think maybe the game is trying to tell you something about how powerful magic works?

They say "derrr, no one is playing above level 15, must be peolle just dont like longer campaigns ever. EVER!"...i wonder, could it have something to do with this weird tendancy to cut classes off below the knees later in levels (moreso with wizard than most) and that people dont find that fun?
Only if this "weird tendency" also occurred in the editions from which they got the polling data that they used to make the design decisions for 5E.
 



Actually there sorta is. There are fluctuations in the finer details edition ti edition but generally, as far as mortal magic goes, the following is reasonabky close to the truth:

(With the exception of psionics, which are not really magic) arcane magic is indirectly and vaguely the source of other magics but there are 1 or more stages in between. This step is usually a god. It can be other things. It can even be multiple steps. But there you go. Arcane is closest to fundemental magic. Other types are at least usually a reconfiguration of the source passed through extra steps.

Disclaimer: some non mortal magic is even more fundemental than arcane but again. Not mortal magic.

Also again. This is only true in the general sense. There are of course non-mortal types of magic that in some editions are even more fundemental than arcane.
 

dave2008

Legend
@TheCosmicKid explained it the best, so I will not elaborate on the 5e explanation further. It may not be what you want, but that is how 5e handles it. If you don't like it, you can: play a different version, wait for a new version, or change it yourself.
 

Fanaelialae

Legend
If a bard casts a healing spell with no faith and no other power behind it..why can't a Wizard?
IMC, bardic magic differs from wizard magic due to its origin. Bardic magic originated from music. In contrast, wizard magic is more formulaic (mathematical).

Music is itself mathematical, so the two approaches are fundamentally related. But you would obviously never confuse a symphony with the quadratic equation. The underpinnings are the same but the approach (and experience thereof) is completely different.

At least in my game, any kind of magic can theoretically produce any kind of effect. However, different approaches favor different outcomes. A wizard spell for Cure Wounds isn't impossible, but it is a difficult and specialized field. The formulaic approach just doesn't lend itself to healing. It's hypothetically possible, but much more complicated to learn than throwing a magic missile.

Technically, I think there was already an Unearthed Arcana that had a wizard who could cast Cure Wounds (Theurgist?). If I'm remembering correctly, that would indicate that such spells are not entirely outside the scope of a wizard; they're simply not something that wizards are normally able to learn (because they require unusual and specialized understanding).
 

Remove ads

Top