D&D 5E Have we rebalanced the Champion Yet?

[TheCosmicKid]

Again: You are wrong.

I'm not going to retread that argument. I was actually going in a different direction than questions of effortlessness and player responsibility. You only responded the first sentence of my post; please at the very least consider the second.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

I'm not going to retread that argument. I was actually going in a different direction than questions of effortlessness and player responsibility. You only responded the first sentence of my post; please at the very least consider the second.

Don't particularly disagree with the second part - Brute probably does quite well in a whiteroom analysis. But, since I don't believe whiteroom is useful, I can't be bothered to do the maths.

 

[NotAYakk]

Sorry Paul; unless 9+ encounter days with < 2 rests are very common, "just dumping dice" is a valid way to compare the Champion to the BM. And if the Champion/Brute cannot beat the least tactical of BM builds, they rather suck.

You are wrong.

You don't balance power with it being annoying to use that power. And if the "annoyance" of a BM using that power consists of using (1) power that deals extra damage on a hit, and (2) saying "I use it" when the DM says "you hit", which isn't much of an annoyance.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Sorry Paul; unless 9+ encounter days with < 2 rests are very common, "just dumping dice" is a valid way to compare the Champion to the BM.

Rubbish. You can wave things away on the basis of "I don't play that way". But you can't claim you are doing it in the name of "balance". There is no objective balance: what is balanced for one person isn't balanced for someone else, because they play differently.

And if the Champion/Brute cannot beat the least tactical of BM builds, they rather suck.

The Champion certainly can beat "the least tactical" BM builds, quite easily. The "least tactical" builds would have no relevant Manoeuvres, so have to be assumed to be +0 over a subclass-less fighter.

And the Brute can beat the most tactical BM builds in anything longer than a one encounter day. And they can do it without turning on their brain. Which makes them doubly OP.

You don't balance power with it being annoying to use that power.

Straw man. I made no mention of "annoyance". You might find this difficult to comprehend, but some D&D players simply aren't interested in tactical combat.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

And the Brute can beat the most tactical BM builds in anything longer than a one encounter day. And they can do it without turning on their brain. Which makes them doubly OP.

Huh.
Was there a post with how the respective classes' damage breaks down in the thread somewhere?

 

[Garthanos]

Huh.
Was there a post with how the respective classes' damage breaks down in the thread somewhere?

I have missed it if there was.
I think you accurately pointed out the OP underestimated the BM

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Huh.
Was there a post with how the respective classes' damage breaks down in the thread somewhere?

Somewhere. Didn't include Brute, but I think it's pretty obvious it will be high. I've just done a quick back-of-envelope calculation comparing Champion and +1d8 on first four hits battlemaster. I reckon Champion passes BM after around 30 hits, which is certainly a lot. But I reckon the real trick to Champion is to Proc GWM bonus action attacks. I haven't done that calculation - it isn't really possible, since the proc happens anyway if the target dies.

The real thing with the Champion (and Brute) is they are boring for any player who enjoys tactical combat, and there is really no reason why such a player would ever choose that subclass (apart from multiclass dips). And that doesn't matter.

If you want another fighter subclass, it needs to be something other than generic, because generic is already well covered.

 

[Garthanos]

Somewhere. Didn't include Brute, but I think it's pretty obvious it will be high. I've just done a quick back-of-envelope calculation comparing Champion and +1d8 on first four hits battlemaster.

If you are using riposte or precision strike (maybe some others if used well)... its not just +d8 its more like 1 attack plus that d8 was Cap n Kobolds comment

 

[Garthanos]

This to me seems the most relevant post so far wrt to comparing the battlemaster to other builds

Bear in mind that the Battlemaster damage maths from the first page is rather bad and somewhat misleading.
It ignores the riders on the maneuvers, to just look at pure damage, but ignores the maneuvers that just give damage: Riposte and precision attack.

A better model would be to assume that each Superiority dice grants an additional attack, rather than just being a rider on an existing attack. This represents use of Riposte to get an additional attack, and Precision to turn a miss into another chance to hit.

This also shows the Battlemaster scaling better since attacks will increase in damage at higher levels.

I think it also points to wanting better balance on some of the other maneuvers....

 

[NotAYakk]

This to me seems the most relevant post so far wrt to comparing the battlemaster to other builds

I think it also points to wanting better balance on some of the other maneuvers....

The point is, first we should balance Champion against the most brain-dead BM. That is a floor.

If you want to do analysis of a fancier BM who uses things like Riposte, go ahead!