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D&D 5E What proportion of the population are adventurers?

First, they don't line up with PC abilities perfectly.

Second, because I want them not to line up with PC abilities perfectly.

I may go and steal a PC ability and put it on a creature. I may even steal a bunch to make it feel similar. But I don't want NPCs to be constrained by PC build and ability management.

PCs are built to be managed by a single human each. NPCs and monsters usually aren't; a DM is running a bunch of them at once.

For example, bear totem barbarian rage. It is far easier for me to just double a monster's HP to reflect that.

On top of that, story based. I don't want the PC to be "just another X". Having NPC mages take a decade to master a spell, while the PC wizard does it overnight, is a good thing as far as I am concerned. This also frees up a bunch of worldbuilding consistency problems.

I want my NPCs to use recognizable spells and techniques PCs can get access to, but I don't want them built as PCs.
As a player (and in-character) I look at such things the other way around: if that NPC can do it then I, being of an appropriate class and with adequate ability, ought to be able to do it as well.

And any NPC with half a brain is going to think the same: e.g. that Fizban guy can learn spells in a day so why does it take me - a more accomplished wizard han he - a year to do the same thing? What's his secret?

And it won't take long for the NPC to in one way or another learn or extract Fizban's tricks and then figure out how to emulate them. Thus, NPC now works like PC. Similar scenarios exist for all other classes.

The only difference is that a stay-at-home labe mage is going to gain xp much slower than ol' Fizzy in the field - lab mage might gain a level every few years while Fizzy gets one every few weeks.
 

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FWIW this reminds me of an old house-rule I had for AD&D:

You gain XP per day equal to your level.

So, a magic-user needed 2,501 XP for second level, which was a bit under 7 years. Another 2,500 was needed for 3rd, level, but that would take under 4 years, and so on.

Using this is would take about 15 years to go from 1st level to 4th, and another 8.5 years roughly to make 5th.

Hence, you can have "sages" or whatever with the ability of a 5th-level magic-user after 23.5 years, making them in their 40's or so, without ever "adventuring." :)
 

FWIW this reminds me of an old house-rule I had for AD&D:

You gain XP per day equal to your level.

So, a magic-user needed 2,501 XP for second level, which was a bit under 7 years. Another 2,500 was needed for 3rd, level, but that would take under 4 years, and so on.

Using this is would take about 15 years to go from 1st level to 4th, and another 8.5 years roughly to make 5th.

Hence, you can have "sages" or whatever with the ability of a 5th-level magic-user after 23.5 years, making them in their 40's or so, without ever "adventuring." :)
With occasional extra xp given for things like spell research (mage), significant or useful castings (mage or cleric), significant successes on jobs (thieves), significant combat encounters (all warrior types), etc.

And thus comes the explanation for how there's often a high-level NPC Cleric in town able to - for a steep fee, of course - revive your dead. :)
 

As a player (and in-character) I look at such things the other way around: if that NPC can do it then I, being of an appropriate class and with adequate ability, ought to be able to do it as well.
Sure. And that is one of the reasons why I cherry pick class abilities.

Now, not always. Because sometimes the reason is "this guy is the best swordsman in 1000 years", or "this guy has practiced the blade for 500 years" or the like.

I do want to follow the 5e rule of "simulation first", where things have a reason, not just a level and power budget.
And any NPC with half a brain is going to think the same: e.g. that Fizban guy can learn spells in a day so why does it take me - a more accomplished wizard han he - a year to do the same thing? What's his secret?

And it won't take long for the NPC to in one way or another learn or extract Fizban's tricks and then figure out how to emulate them. Thus, NPC now works like PC. Similar scenarios exist for all other classes.
(a) What if they cannot? I mean, I want to have Feynman's facility with mathematics, but few do.

(b) What if they can? The intro (T1) adventure leads into the first MacGuffin, which is what makes the PCs special.

T2 then involves racing for them with other factions, who also want that special sauce.
The only difference is that a stay-at-home labe mage is going to gain xp much slower than ol' Fizzy in the field - lab mage might gain a level every few years while Fizzy gets one every few weeks.
Again, you are assuming adventuring - and XP - works for everyone. Which leads to ridiculous Tippyverses.
 


Again, you are assuming adventuring - and XP - works for everyone.
I'm assuming xp works the same for everyone, yes, as I'm assuming that PCs are simply NPCs that happen to have a player attached; and that someone walking down the street in the game world wouldn't be able to tell them apart.

People in the game world don't walk around with little stickers on their foreheads saying "PC" or "NPC".
Which leads to ridiculous Tippyverses.
Er...OK...whatever those are. Never heard of this one.
 

Thanks for the reply, Lanefan. A few thoughts...

The variable this ignores, however, is magic. [/QUOTE}

Good point. I did somewhat account for this in that I think it is viable to consider Early Industrial as a realistic equivalent, considering the prevalence of magic in some campaign worlds. But this really depends the world itself and the assumptions built into it by the DM--as you say. Is magic closely guarded by wizardly orders who don't share it with the masses, who thus do not receive any such benefits that you mention? How rare is it? Etc.

And a balancing point: the existence of magic, and fantastical creatures, makes a typical fantasy world far more dangerous than our own world, at least in that it adds potential threats that our world doesn't really have. On the other than, this point is further balanced by the general lack of frequent plagues that have occured in our world, or at least they usually aren't nearly as common in most fantasy histories.

You're assuming that training has to come from someone else, right? But what about self-training?

Yes, which is why I see no reason that there could be a plethora of low-level classes--at least fighters, rangers, and rogues--in most populations. this also furthers the idea of a "bottom-heavy" pyramid (or beaker).

...my world would probably be somewhere between these two on average, though the actual numbers would vary widely depending on culture. For example it's quite possible that 3 Elves out of every 4 are levelled now or have been at some point during their lives, where it's also possible that of a community of 1000 Hobbits you'd be lucky to find one with any levels at all.

Yes, I like this distinction and thought of it at the end of my long post, which is why I mentioned other factors--such as specific groups. I would imagine that drow would have a very high percentage of leveled individuals, for instance, due to the dangerous nature of their habitat.

My incomplete thoughts on this lead me to conclude that the shape of the distribution isn't a nice neat triangle with low level at the bottom and high at the top, but more like a beaker: triangular-ish at the bottom but morphing into almost a narrow tapering tube or cylinder at the top, with a very high upper extreme.

Yeah, I like this. It is also why I would think more in terms of tiers than levels. If a world has, say, 50 individuals at epic tier (16-20), they can be distributed in any number of ways, and it will always be shifting.

I'm reminded of "cat years." Most people think it is x7, but it really varies within different age ranges.

One last point. A factor that I didn't consider when writing the longer post, but thought of while reading yours, is that "abandoned campaigns" could add an element to the mix. For every campaign that makes it to 15th+ level, there are many--dozens, probably--that never make it past 5th level. This might be the "real-world" corollary to the pyramid/beaker shape. I mean, it isn't unlike the fact that all of us have countless unfinished projects for every one we finish.

I don't think this formula is any more absolute than the original one I came up with, but it does provide another angle and guideline to think this through. Let's say, for instanace, that about 10% of starting campaigns make it to 5th level, and of the PCs, half survive. That means that for every 100 1st level characters in starting campaigns, 95 of them effectively "retire" (corollating with abandoned campaigns) or die before reaching 5th level.

It doesn't have to be those percentages, but that gives us an idea. If we take the same approach for every tier with an arbitrary one millionish leveled characters, we get:

1 million at 1st tier (1st-4th)
10,000 att 2nd tier (5th-10th)
100+ at 3rd tier (11th-15th)
5 at 4th tier (16th-20th)
 

I'm assuming xp works the same for everyone, yes, as I'm assuming that PCs are simply NPCs that happen to have a player attached; and that someone walking down the street in the game world wouldn't be able to tell them apart.

Depends on what version of D&D you are playing. If I remember correctly, I am pretty sure that AD&D awarded NPCs working with PCs half the XP the PCs earned. Which, in my old gaming groups, is how we made the houserule that PCs of absent players also got the same half XP because they were being run as an NPC while the player was not there.
 

Depends on what version of D&D you are playing. If I remember correctly, I am pretty sure that AD&D awarded NPCs working with PCs half the XP the PCs earned. Which, in my old gaming groups, is how we made the houserule that PCs of absent players also got the same half XP because they were being run as an NPC while the player was not there.
Even in 5E our DM awards NPC 1/2 XP (or more I should say, takes it away from our characters... ;) ).

And we have the same houserule: PCs out of the adventure are awarded half the XP (just to keep them somewhat on pace).
 

FWIW this reminds me of an old house-rule I had for AD&D:

You gain XP per day equal to your level.

So, a magic-user needed 2,501 XP for second level, which was a bit under 7 years. Another 2,500 was needed for 3rd, level, but that would take under 4 years, and so on.

Using this is would take about 15 years to go from 1st level to 4th, and another 8.5 years roughly to make 5th.

Hence, you can have "sages" or whatever with the ability of a 5th-level magic-user after 23.5 years, making them in their 40's or so, without ever "adventuring." :)

I did pretty much the same thing. I varied the experience by how dangerous the area was for certain professions though (frontiers made for higher level Soldiers than peaceful areas for example). I've used NPC classes since AD&D as well. Dragon always had boatloads of them, although they tended to be a bit wonky (I preferred my own variants). I rather liked 3E's NPC classes, they hit the sweet spot of covering everybody else outside the PC class professions, but not being so good that PCs wanted to wander off and take up farming or smithing. I did this with 3.x and I've retooled the NPC classes to replace all the variant NPC / monster types that some people love in 5E. I like the NPC classes for world building and setting purposes. I agree with Lanefan, (if I read him right) I want my PCs and NPCs to work in the same ecology / system. As for murder hoboing not being a learning experience for everyone, well those Commoners don't get experience for killing weeds, just for doing their jobs :) Simulating retirement could be done by subtracting experience when an NPC (or PC) quits their profession. Kind of the opposite of the slow gain XP / level / day bit. Doing some activities (weapon practice, magic research, religious study etc.) could ward off experience loss as well.
 

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