D&D 5E (2014) Metamagic for wizards not for sorcerers?

[GameOgre]

In older editions metamagic was a wizard thing. It was taken from them in 5E and given to sorcerers.

 

[Krachek]

The Uber character,

Spell slot like a full caster.
Got access to all spell list.
Get extra attack like a valor bard.
Get expertise like a bard.
Can smite like a paladin, and can also smite on spell attack.
Have access to manœuvre like a battle master.
Have meta magic and sorcery point like a sorcerer.

Did I forget something?

 

[Aldarc]

That's pity but If I can one question - I'v saw bunch combos of multiclassing and when it was something about using magic, all of them have multiclass with sorcerer - for metamagic, for special abilities their origins (thunder, shadow, celestial, dragons). No one was diping for wizard. There are some wizards diping in other class, but that isn't same. I saw combos wizards diped in sorcerers just for got metamagic... so where is "something more" in wizards?

Sure. You may not be looking at it the bigger picture here. Sorcerers are not so much a class that is dipped into; instead, they are more often a class that dips: e.g., into warlock (Sorlock) and into paladin (Sorcadin). Part of the reason has to do with the number of (sub-)classes that key-off Charisma as their stat (i.e., Bard, Paladin, Sorcerer, Warlock) versus the number of (sub-)classes that key-off Intelligence (i.e., Wizard). So you will typically not see Arcane Tricksters or Eldritch Knights dip into Sorcerer, but you are more likely to see them dip into Wizard, since they all use Intelligence. But you do see a lot of multi-class combos that involve Charisma-based class combinations. Sorcerer dipping is also nowhere near as much of an issue as Warlock dipping. People aren't really dipping into Wizard because the best way to play a Wizard is 1-20 or maybe 1-19, depending if one goes a level of fighter or cleric. Wizards have more incentives to stay a single-class, whereas Warlocks, Sorcerers, and even Paladins (to some extent, due to how bottom-heavy the class is) are weaker single-classes. (A paladin is an unquestionably strong single-class, but its strength can also bolster weaker Charisma casters.)

In older editions metamagic was a wizard thing. It was taken from them in 5E and given to sorcerers.

In older editions, spontaneous casting was a sorcerer thing. It was taken from them in 5e and given to nearly everyone. I think wizards won that exchange.

 

[delph]

The Uber character,

And you are talking about??


Spell slot like a full caster. - it's wrong?
Got access to all spell list. - never have, no one wants (or do?)
Get extra attack like a valor bard. - (Bladesinger have, but lost other things)
Get expertise like a bard. - No need (maybe for Arcane, sounds logic)
Can smite like a paladin, and can also smite on spell attack. - never have, no one wants (or do?)
Have access to manœuvre like a battle master. - never have, no one wants (or do?)
Have meta magic and sorcery point like a sorcerer. - yes, thats only thing m talking (and then it will be wizard points )

 

[Fanaelialae]

Why can't be wizard savant and educated? Sorcerers are working with Charisma, not Wisdom so no any reason to describe them as savant. You can creat sorcerer with INT 8-1, WIS 8-1 and boost CHAR, CON, DEX and it will work better. Make Sorcerers casting from WIS and I say (almost) nothing. They will be clever boys as Wizards, but in other way.
to martial classes... but I'm thinking about give it only to wizards, and give sorcerers another abilities representing their source of power.

Sorcerers approach magic intuitively. They FEEL the magic even if they don't UNDERSTAND it. They can compose a song on a whim, even though they couldn't play Beethoven's 5th if you asked it of them.

Wizards approach magic scientifically. They UNDERSTAND the magic but cannot FEEL it. They can play Beethoven's 5th if you ask (along with a wealth of other symphonies) but cannot compose a song on the fly.

If you want to be able to do both, you can multiclass.

Wizards are a top tier class. IIRC sorcerer is not (tier 2 I think). Taking the sorcerer's toys and giving them to the wizard will make the wizard hands down the strongest class in the game.

Maybe not if you take away some of the wizard's toys, but it will take a lot more than the loss of Arcane Recovery to balance it IMO. Wizard is already one of the best classes in the game.

 

[GameOgre]

In older editions, spontaneous casting was a sorcerer thing. It was taken from them in 5e and given to nearly everyone. I think wizards won that exchange.

I agree that spontaneous magic was taken from sorcerers. I will even go so far as to say it shouldn't have been. I will disagree they won the exchange. In our games EVERYONE picks sorcerer as THE better choice.

 

[Minigiant]

In older editions metamagic was a wizard thing. It was taken from them in 5E and given to sorcerers.

In older editions, spontaneous casting was a sorcerer thing. It was taken from them in 5e and given to nearly everyone. I think wizards won that exchange.

This displays the change of how the editions saw magic.

In the past (really just 3e), the limitation was prep time. You could work magic but you'd have to prep it.
In 5e, the limitation was flexability. You could work magic but each spell did one thing one way based on how much power you pumped into it.

Wizards accepted this and just made more spells.
Sorcerers had the power to break that rule for fewer spells known.

 

[Li Shenron]

After some thinking about metamagic I'm wondering why it have sorcerers and no wizards?
As I understand wizards as men who learning how to use, handle, work with magic in the smallest details. Then it made me a sense to give them the ability to made theirs spell empowered, quickened, subtle,... They know how they work then they should know how to change them.

Sorcerers "cast just for fun" Nobody teach them, they can be really stupid, but hey they can change spell "at will".

I'd like to see metamagic for wizards and sorcerers got something more from their ancestry. Be much powerfull in close segment of their magic (elemental magic for dragon ancestry, choosing wildmagic effects for wildmagic sorcerers etc.)

The real reason is separating the roles of Wizard vs Sorcerer.

If you start thinking in terms of "makes sense" you can really do the same for the Sorcerer: she is an innate spellcaster, meaning she is actually magical, doesn't need to study or be taught, so why shouldn't she be able to just research new spells and increase her number of spells known for a small cost like a Wizard? Makes sense! And why shouldn't she be able to pick on everybody's spells list, like a Bard? Makes sense! And why does Wizard and not Sorcerer get Signature Spell and Spell Mastery, obviously a Sorcerer is more likely to develop those after casting the same friggin' only 15 spells all her life... makes sense!

And why not saying that Wizards can be really un-charismatic, why being intelligent should give you an edge on magic which is the opposite of science in so many ways, magic should be about "soul" and personal magnetism and sense of self (reality check: compare real-life scientists with real-life "practitioners" of magic).

If you want your Wizards to be more "uber" like in older editions, then just get rid of the Sorcerer class and give everything to your Wizards. This is what they did in 3.5ed anyway, they murdered the Sorcerer class by making its unique stuff available to others.

So yeah, the real reason not to give metamagic to anyone else is because it's the only mechanical element that makes Sorcerer a class on its own (Sorcery Points don't really do it, not enough at least). Just like you also don't want everything of the Fighter to be available to everyone otherwise nobody will ever play a single-class Fighter again.

 

[aco175]

I could be convinced to allow wizards to learn spells at the metamagic level. You want a quickened fireball, you need to learn it as one of your 6th level spells. You just want a disguised fireball, you can replace a 4th level spell with it.

Not sure if this makes them more powerful and a bit unbalanced. One one hand I can see it as just one spell that is fixed and not any of my spells can be quickened, just my fireball when I cast a 6th level spell. On the other hand, I'm not sure that the number of spells wizards get over sorcerers makes this fine for a few on my spells since I have all those slots to fill and now I'm more powerful.

 

[MarkB]

After some thinking about metamagic I'm wondering why it have sorcerers and no wizards?
As I understand wizards as men who learning how to use, handle, work with magic in the smallest details. Then it made me a sense to give them the ability to made theirs spell empowered, quickened, subtle,... They know how they work then they should know how to change them.

Knowing how a thing can be done is not the same as actually being able to do that thing. Maybe metamagic is something that only a person for whom spellcasting is an innate gift can master. Those who gain spells through other means simply lack the capacity to do so.