D&D 5E Metamagic for wizards not for sorcerers?

[MoonSong]

In older editions metamagic was a wizard thing. It was taken from them in 5E and given to sorcerers.

On the other hand, there hasn't been a single edition with a sorcerer that couldn't use metamagic in some way. And having lived through the playtest and all of the communications it isn't as if metamagic was taken away from everybody and given to sorcerer, the designers gave up on metamagic early on, and metamagic is only in the game because they needed to give something to sorcerer. And sorcerer is only in the game because plan A (give everything to wizard under the name of Mage) fell through.

Wizards are a top tier class. IIRC sorcerer is not (tier 2 I think). Taking the sorcerer's toys and giving them to the wizard will make the wizard hands down the strongest class in the game.

Maybe not if you take away some of the wizard's toys, but it will take a lot more than the loss of Arcane Recovery to balance it IMO. Wizard is already one of the best classes in the game.

I would start with the following changes.
Hit dice goes to d2.
Can't get Dex to AC without mage armor
Can only have sage as a background
Can only prepare proficiency bonus+INT spells
Only one cantrip known.
All metamagic spells have to be prepared as another spell and count towards the limit, even then, each metamagiced spell can only be used once and is then erased. So if you want to quicken a fireball, each quickening has to be prepared ahead of time and counts as a spell prepared for the day.
No spell mastery

I agree that spontaneous magic was taken from sorcerers. I will even go so far as to say it shouldn't have been. I will disagree they won the exchange. In our games EVERYONE picks sorcerer as THE better choice.

That's because wizard is entirely uninspiring and this edition is all about presentation.

 

[Todd Roybark]

This is what they did in 3.5ed anyway, they murdered the Sorcerer class by making its unique stuff available to others.

Luckily, the statue of limitation, has expired on this particular ‘crime’.
besides, people just played Warmages and Beguilers.

The class did not, stay dead.

On the other hand, there hasn't been a single edition with a sorcerer that couldn't use metamagic in some way.

Except, most Sorcerers did not use metamagic in 3e. Since 4e sure.

In my opinion, the 5e spell system, does a poor job making any magic using class, feel like someone, who is spontaneously weaving the threads of magic...including the Sorcerer.

The ship, to make the Sorcerer a unique class in 5e, has sailed.

Divine Casters are the true magic masters, with practical access to their entire spell list.
The Wizard, just has theoretical access to their entire list, and less HP.

edit: that said, a Wizard Incantrix spell class is possible to design and be balanced.

 

[MoonSong]

Except, most Sorcerers did not use metamagic in 3e. Since 4e sure.

In 3.x sorcerers got boxed into being blasters, and many people played them that way (Even I understand that you cannot be a blaster without the methodical use of the correct metamagic, because blind blasting is plain bad in 3e). And if one is not expending their sorcerer feats in metamagic -or extra spell- in what?

 

[Todd Roybark]

And if one is not expending their sorcerer feats in metamagic -or extra spell- in what?

That is an excellent question! There was only one single class Sorcerer I saw in play in 3e... they used metamagic in a poorly timed way, for the full round action to the spell cast, and were killed.

That player later made a Warmage, (and loved it), but would not touch the Sorcerer class.
Otherwise I saw a lot of Sorcerer multi-class dips...which generally did not pay off.

Let us just agree that Sorcerer’s solely have metamagic now, and some, sorely, wish that wasn’t the case.

Not me, of course .

 

[Kurotowa]

I'm seeing a lot of narrative based arguments over Wizards having Metamagic. That's... well, I'll be blunt. That's a terrible way to design a game. Narrative goals should inspire and shape game design, but not when it comes to specific details. "Class A should get Ability X that's currently unique to Class B, because Lore Reasons" is not a claim about game design or class balance, it's being a partisan of Class A and wanting them to get more fancy toys.

Is the Wizard class on the weak side in 5e? Certainly not. Is there room to cut enough abilities from the class to make the addition of Metamagic a power neutral change? You'd have to cut so much they'd basically be Sorcerers, and that defeats the purpose of the exercise. Is there enough power budget available to make a Metamagic-lite Wizard subclass? If you follow the UA releases you'll know the devs keep trying, but it always results in overpowered abominations like the Loremaster.

There is not a single good game design argument for giving Metamagic to Wizards, just a bunch of handwaving about how Wizards are the best at magic so they should be able to do all the magic things. And that's a weak, weak argument.

 

[dave2008]

After some thinking about metamagic I'm wondering why it have sorcerers and no wizards?
As I understand wizards as men who learning how to use, handle, work with magic in the smallest details. Then it made me a sense to give them the ability to made theirs spell empowered, quickened, subtle,... They know how they work then they should know how to change them.

Sorcerers "cast just for fun" Nobody teach them, they can be really stupid, but hey they can change spell "at will".

I'd like to see metamagic for wizards and sorcerers got something more from their ancestry. Be much powerfull in close segment of their magic (elemental magic for dragon ancestry, choosing wildmagic effects for wildmagic sorcerers etc.)

First, they are just names. Just switch the name of the classes and your good to go. However, personally that is not how I see it in the fiction of my world:

Wizard: Wizards learn the precise components (verbal, somatic, & material) to cast spells. These cannot be deviated from without ruining the spell. You can experiment and research variations (new spells), but that is not something you can do on the fly.

Sorcerer: Sorcerer's have innate magical abilities from their bloodlines. The don't need most components, if any, to cast magic. They can just do it. However, they are much more limited in the types of spells they can cast. However, because they have innate control over magic, within their narrow band of magic they have greater freedom to experiment (metamagic). They are not restricted by the verbal, somatic, and material components of magic; but they are restricted by their bloodlines.

 

[dave2008]

So in other words, more of what I said: non-wizard mages aren't allowed to have nice things because people will always find excuses to rationalize why wizards should be the best at everything magical.

You could always just say wizards are the only arcane casters (ban the rest) and give them all tools and tricks!

 

[MarkB]

In 3.x sorcerers got boxed into being blasters, and many people played them that way (Even I understand that you cannot be a blaster without the methodical use of the correct metamagic, because blind blasting is plain bad in 3e). And if one is not expending their sorcerer feats in metamagic -or extra spell- in what?

The one sorcerer I played in 3.5e was in a bordering-on-epic-level campaign, and he was definitely a blaster. I vaguely recall at one point being Hasted and hitting a major villain evil priest with a Meteor Swarm, seeing that he was still standing, and then dropping another one on him.

After that, I just retired the character, because he felt more like an ambulatory artillery piece than a person.

 

[FrogReaver]

After some thinking about metamagic I'm wondering why it have sorcerers and no wizards?
As I understand wizards as men who learning how to use, handle, work with magic in the smallest details. Then it made me a sense to give them the ability to made theirs spell empowered, quickened, subtle,... They know how they work then they should know how to change them.

Sorcerers "cast just for fun" Nobody teach them, they can be really stupid, but hey they can change spell "at will".

I'd like to see metamagic for wizards and sorcerers got something more from their ancestry. Be much powerfull in close segment of their magic (elemental magic for dragon ancestry, choosing wildmagic effects for wildmagic sorcerers etc.)

The issue with this is that there's a better narrative case that sorcerers should be more magical than wizards in every respect because they are innately magical. Sorcerers should get the best and most powerful magics and wizards should be staring at them in jealousy while trying to think of some intelligent way to outmaneuver such a superior caster.

Key points:
1. Sorcerers due to their innate magical nature should have access to all spells in the game.
2. Sorcerers due to their innate magical nature should be able to control magic in ways no innate casters are incapable of.

Justifying what the wizard should be able to do narratively while not giving the sorcerer the same courtesy is the issue with your argument.

 

[dave2008]

The issue with this is that there's a better narrative case that sorcerers should be more magical than wizards in every respect because they are innately magical. Sorcerers should get the best and most powerful magics and wizards should be staring at them in jealousy while trying to think of some intelligent way to outmaneuver such a superior caster.

Key points:
1. Sorcerers due to their innate magical nature should have access to all spells in the game.
2. Sorcerers due to their innate magical nature should be able to control magic in ways no innate casters are incapable of.

Justifying what the wizard should be able to do narratively while not giving the sorcerer the same courtesy is the issue with your argument.

I disagree, IMO:

Wizard: Wizards learn the precise components (verbal, somatic, & material) to cast spells. These cannot be deviated from without ruining the spell. You can experiment and research variations (new spells), but that is not something you can do on the fly. However, that research and careful training opens up all the possibilities of magic.

Sorcerer: Sorcerer's have innate magical abilities from their bloodlines. The don't need most components, if any, to cast magic. They can just do it. However, they are much more limited in the types of spells they can cast. However, because they have innate control over magic, within their narrow band of magic they have greater freedom to experiment (metamagic). They are not restricted by the verbal, somatic, and material components of magic; but they are restricted by their bloodlines.

Finally, nothing stops a sorcerer from training to learn spells like a wizard