D&D 5E Metamagic for wizards not for sorcerers?

[Neonchameleon]

After some thinking about metamagic I'm wondering why it have sorcerers and no wizards?
As I understand wizards as men who learning how to use, handle, work with magic in the smallest details. Then it made me a sense to give them the ability to made theirs spell empowered, quickened, subtle,... They know how they work then they should know how to change them.

Sorcerers "cast just for fun" Nobody teach them, they can be really stupid, but hey they can change spell "at will".

I'd like to see metamagic for wizards and sorcerers got something more from their ancestry. Be much powerfull in close segment of their magic (elemental magic for dragon ancestry, choosing wildmagic effects for wildmagic sorcerers etc.)

If you were careful you could make metamagic into a wizard speciality - so instead of playing an illusionist, diviner, or bladesinger you played a metamagus whose thing was a metamagic pool.

You could also use the main historical metamagic wizards have had - which is not the ability to metamagic on the fly the way a sorcerer could, but the ability to prepare metamagicked spells. So if you wanted an acid ball you'd have to prepare it rather than a fireball for the whole day (or you could prepare both).

But the fundamental fact about wizard casting is that they are magical diletantes who, unlike other casting classes, do not actually master their spells (at least until 18th level). This is why they need to prepare them out of their spellbook every morning rather than actually having learned the spells. It's the very flexibility and "a mile wide and an inch deep" approach to their magic that prevents them from mastering their spells enough to be able to make minor tweaks to them on the fly.

Meanwhile sorcerers go in hard on what they know and they have actually mastered those spells. They know their spells well enough that they don't have to refer to the notes every morning; they've worked with those spells and those specific spells enough to be able to adjust them on the fly. The benefit of the narrower specialisation sorcerers have is a greater mastery of those spells, which includes not having to refer to the notes on the base spell every morning. Wizards get breadth by getting more spells; sorcerers get breadth by adapting the spells that they have mastered.

And the idea that just because they got their power from a different place means that they put less work in when their lives are on the line in a regular basis is IMO risible.

Sorcerers and even bards have a better claim to metamagic than wizards do. Adjusting your spell list is an alternative to metamagic.

 

[jmartkdr2]

Since it's magic, it doesn't work any particular way except how we decide to define it for this story. Ergo, and "magic works like this" argument is built entire on assumption the person basically just made up.

The reason for the current setup in 5e is mechanics - sorcerers needed something to separate them form other casters, and metamagic wasn't taken.

If you want to modify 5e by giving metamagic to other classes, I'd caution against that. It'd be a nightmare to balance because you need to balance spotlight more than you need to balance dpr, and this is stealing an entire class's spotlight.

If you're thinking about making your own fantasy game - this is a good question to ask, but if you decide metamagic should either go to wizards or just go to all spellcasters, it leads to "should sorcerers (as distinct from wizards) still be a thing, and if so, how are sorcerers cool in the new paradigm?"

 

[MoonSong]

Since it's magic, it doesn't work any particular way except how we decide to define it for this story. Ergo, and "magic works like this" argument is built entire on assumption the person basically just made up.

The reason for the current setup in 5e is mechanics - sorcerers needed something to separate them form other casters, and metamagic wasn't taken.

If you want to modify 5e by giving metamagic to other classes, I'd caution against that. It'd be a nightmare to balance because you need to balance spotlight more than you need to balance dpr, and this is stealing an entire class's spotlight.

If you're thinking about making your own fantasy game - this is a good question to ask, but if you decide metamagic should either go to wizards or just go to all spellcasters, it leads to "should sorcerers (as distinct from wizards) still be a thing, and if so, how are sorcerers cool in the new paradigm?"

It is a matter of perspective, but if it helps, I don't see wizards doing "real" magic -we can still call it magic, but it isn't supernatural-. This in the sense that their approach is scientific and what they do is essentially applied science taking advantage of the laws of nature -fantasy laws of nature that allow invisibility and stuff, but still part of nature- so closer to fantasy technology and not very supernatural.

That is where sorcerer comes, sorcerers are supernatural creatures, so the laws of nature don't apply to them. They can do things with their magic that defy the laws of nature. So, for example the laws of nature establish that a fireball takes exactly six seconds to cast and no less, or that a single focal point can't sustain more than one person being hasted, every other spell needs noise to happen and so on. But sorcerers beign supernatural can do magic without causing noise or in a way that affects more people than should be possible, or do it more quickly. Under this, casters such as druids, warlocks and clerics do use supernatural magic, but they can't change it because it is given to them "as is".

 

[Todd Roybark]

The point is, Font of Magic makes the Sorcerer shine exactly when it's used for metamagic.

There is not much else for a Sorcerer to do other than Metamagic. That unfortunately is a failure of imagination on the part of the D&D team.

The expanded class feature U/A that expanded the power of Font of Magic is a start. Spells known should represent the ‘normal magic’ a Sorcerer picks up.

One idea is a Sorcerer picks a suite of spells that they could cast from Sorcery points alone.
A Shadow Magic Sorcerer, shows the potential of this route.

The class as designed now, is a bit of a missed opportunity.

More like the Magic User was a shard pretending to be the whole crystal and other shards have surfaced since then.

MoonSong, the last big Sorcerer v Wizard thread, was a good discussion. Your passion for the class swayed my opinion. That said, the history of the creation of the class has been clearly documented.

The Sorcerer class never has been given the design space to shine on it’s own, to feel very distinct from the Wizard.

Would it be unfair to say, that regardless of whatever ‘side’ one might take in this debate, all classes should feel unique, and satisfying to play?

 

[MoonSong]

There is not much else for a Sorcerer to do other than Metamagic. That unfortunately is a failure of imagination on WoTC part.

It was cobbled together at the eleventh hour, what else could we expect?

MoonSong, the last big Sorcerer v Wizard thread, was a good discussion. Your passion for the class swayed my opinion. That said, the history of the creation of the class has been clearly documented.

Ok, let's not go there then. (I made that comment from a thematic point of view, not from mechanics)

The Sorcerer class never has been given the design space to shine on it’s own, to feel very distinct from the Wizard.

I agree, but I can only see it happening if the sorcerer gets designed first on a new edition. 4e came closest, but severely stunted the sorcerer by making the ritual system too closely tied to the wizard.
The problem with the sorcerer and wizard is that both of them are each "half a class". Most other classes are complete in the sense that background doesn't matter, but background is an important part of sorcerer and wizard. A solution would be to merge them, but that would mean the iconic D&D wizard would be diluted in the shuffle. (And by background I mean the actual background not the mechanical background)

 

[FrozenNorth]

The problem with the sorcerer and wizard is that both of them are each "half a class". Most other classes are complete in the sense that background doesn't matter, but background is an important part of sorcerer and wizard. A solution would be to merge them, but that would mean the iconic D&D wizard would be diluted in the shuffle. (And by background I mean the actual background not the mechanical background)

I disagree. The problem with wizards has never been that they don’t do enough: it is that they do too much.

In pre-D&D fiction, an enchantress enchants, a necromancer raises dead, a conjurer summons or conjures and a diviner divines.

D&D created the “I do all magic (except healing)” wizard, and virtually every edition since has had to deal with trying to balance a spellcaster whose schtick is “I can cherry pick the best spells across magic traditions”.

The solution would be to limit wizards to one school, with a small handful of general spells and a 6th-level et l ability to pick a couple of non-school spells. Then you could give them sub-class abilities that would make their respective schools shine (and possibly sneak in limited metamagic that way).

 

[MoonSong]

I disagree. The problem with wizards has never been that they don’t do enough: it is that they do too much.

In pre-D&D fiction, an enchantress enchants, a necromancer raises dead, a conjurer summons or conjures and a diviner divines.

D&D created the “I do all magic (except healing)” wizard, and virtually every edition since has had to deal with trying to balance a spellcaster whose schtick is “I can cherry pick the best spells across magic traditions”.

The solution would be to limit wizards to one school, with a small handful of general spells and a 6th-level et l ability to pick a couple of non-school spells. Then you could give them sub-class abilities that would make their respective schools shine (and possibly sneak in limited metamagic that way).

They aren't mutually exclusive. The problem you bring is "The wizard does everything in one class", the problem I bring is "There is only one background available for all enchantresses, necromancers, conjurers and diviners". So the wizard does too much at the same time while only giving us one-true-way to do it all.

As for metamagic, some schools already do limited metamagic in all but name.

 

[Minigiant]

I agree, but I can only see it happening if the sorcerer gets designed first on a new edition. 4e came closest, but severely stunted the sorcerer by making the ritual system too closely tied to the wizard.
The problem with the sorcerer and wizard is that both of them are each "half a class". Most other classes are complete in the sense that background doesn't matter, but background is an important part of sorcerer and wizard. A solution would be to merge them, but that would mean the iconic D&D wizard would be diluted in the shuffle. (And by background I mean the actual background not the mechanical background)

Sorcerers don't have to be designed first.
Nor are sorcerer's and wizard have to be 2 sides of the same coin.

The issue is WOTC never determined nor explored what the sorcerer is until they need splatbooks.

 

[MoonSong]

Sorcerers don't have to be designed first.

Because being designed dead last has certainly worked very well? I mean this

The issue is WOTC never determined nor explored what the sorcerer is until they need splatbooks.

Could have been avoided if the designers had given the sorcerer a bit more priority. For them to be truly mechanically distinct, the game has to be built form the ground up with enough space for both of them.

Nor are sorcerer's and wizard have to be 2 sides of the same coin.

But they are. If the wizard wasn't crippled thematically, then sorcerer could be a different beast focused on the bloodlines. But the wizard cannot be changed, it is too iconic to be changed. As long as the wizard remains the iconic D&D wizard, the sorcerer will fill the void it leaves behind and the two of them will remain interconnected.

 

[Minigiant]

Could have been avoided if the designers had given the sorcerer a bit more priority. For them to be truly mechanically distinct, the game has to be built form the ground up with enough space for both of them.

Order doesn't matter if you don't have an idea what it is supposed to be.

Ranger was designed after the core 4 and it is still a mess.

But they are. If the wizard wasn't crippled thematically, then sorcerer could be a different beast focused on the bloodlines. But the wizard cannot be changed, it is too iconic to be changed. As long as the wizard remains the iconic D&D wizard, the sorcerer will fill the void it leaves behind and the two of them will remain interconnected.

But they are. If the wizard wasn't crippled thematically, then sorcerer could be a different beast focused on the bloodlines. But the wizard cannot be changed, it is too iconic to be changed. As long as the wizard remains the iconic D&D wizard, the sorcerer will fill the void it leaves behind and the two of them will remain interconnected.

Sorcerers are no more connected to Wizards than Warlocks and Clerics are.

The issue is that D&D designers have always been from a section of the community who don't care for it. So they just don't have an idea what to do with it and can't give the community what they what.