D&D 5E Metamagic for wizards not for sorcerers?

[GameOgre]

I do think Wizards are fine as is in 5E ........as long as the DM does give them access to a wide variety of spells. I have played and ran 5E adventure paths and mostly this is not the case. The vast majority of casters the party defeated were not wizards but Sorcerers.

If the DM adds in plenty of spellbooks and scrolls ect...then I think the Wizards place in the party and attractiveness as a class is solid. It's only when that doesn't happen that the wizard seems like the red headed stepchild of the sorcerer.

Really a lot of 5E is like that. Fighter is a outstanding class but only when the DM gives the fighter the right tools to shine.

 

[Neonchameleon]

I don't think anyone thinks that the Warlock is bland or a complete mess despite the fact it was designed late.

The problem the 5e sorcerer has is that it is far too close to the 3.X sorcerer - which is bland and its only identity is flexible spell slots. And being able to metamagic on the fly which the wizard couldn't (hence being able to do it now).

I think what I'd have preferred is something closer to but beyond the 5e Elementalist Sorcerer; mechanically almost closer to the warlock (although thematically very distinct) but putting together a structure that is essentially a grab-bag of themed abilities so the dragon elementalist starts off with a breath weapon and scales and gets things like wings, while the fire sorcerer starts off with a small fireball, bonfire, and affect normal fires at will, and gets things like cloak of flames and the ability to teleport between fires. Never actually touching an orthodox spell list.

 

[Kurotowa]

I don't think anyone thinks that the Warlock is bland or a complete mess despite the fact it was designed late.

Bland, certainly not. Suffering serious design flaws, certainly. The launch Blade Pact was a mess and the entire class is heavily reliant on more frequent Short Rests than most campaigns seem to use. I love the flavor of the Warlock class but I seriously doubt I'll want to play one again any time soon.

 

[delph]

After weekend I have time to write something longer.
At first - almost everyone have another point of view on Wizard / Sorcerer by books, films, other games he or she has behind.

So my point of view is Wizard/Sorcere = Fighter/Barbarian both are doing the same, one is studied and trained, second is naturally talented.

So Wizards are precious. Can use metamagic to construct theirs spells much more efective, not only by DMG. But they have borders of their power. So I suggest - no "wizard point after any rest" they can do them only from spell slots they have. And no Arcane recovery. Or very small...

Sorcerers are wild and strong - I'd like to see use their sorcery points to get magical effects from their source of power (Dragons, Celestials, Shadow, Wild,..), converting SP to spell slots - have more slots then wizards (because they aren't limited by their mind, but taking magic from the surrounding,...), or push spell slots higher (investing some SP to get a higher slot, than they can. Useful for many spells and YES they could use "10th spell slot lvl").

AAAnd maybe I like to see Sorcerers as WIS based casters. Wizard is INT, Bard is CHA. And it's logical for me, they have to know how to work with magic in this way, more than "I dominate it trough my charisma"

 

[Bitbrain]

After weekend I have time to write something longer.
At first - almost everyone have another point of view on Wizard / Sorcerer by books, films, other games he or she has behind.

Sorcerers are wild and strong - I'd like to see use their sorcery points to get magical effects from their source of power (Dragons, Celestials, Shadow, Wild,..), converting SP to spell slots - have more slots then wizards (because they aren't limited by their mind, but taking magic from the surrounding,...), or push spell slots higher (investing some SP to get a higher slot, than they can. Useful for many spells and YES they could use "10th spell slot lvl").

Every Draconic Sorcerer I have ever played would have died of joy at the idea of unleashing a bonus action breath weapon (30 foot long, DEX saving throw, damage equals 2d6 + Sorcerer level) at the low low cost of only 1 Sorcery point...

 

[Ashrym]

In older editions metamagic was a wizard thing. It was taken from them in 5E and given to sorcerers.

It wasn't a wizard thing, though. Every spell caster could learn meta-magic and it wasn't "older editions" so much a that one edition.

I agree that spontaneous magic was taken from sorcerers. I will even go so far as to say it shouldn't have been. I will disagree they won the exchange. In our games EVERYONE picks sorcerer as THE better choice.

Anyone picking sorcerers is doing it because meta-magic is good. Wizards still have definite advantages too.

The Wizard and the Sorcerer are stuck in a Dark Crystal scenario. The Crystal Cracked, the Magic User, got split, and nobody has been entirely happy about it, ever since.

I'm happy about it. I'm good with neither getting everything and taking one means giving things up that look good enough to want. Both are a reasonable choice for different features within those classes.

5e -- where every caster is both over-powered and under-powered depending on who's complaining.

Font of Magic i.e. spending Sorcery Points for creating spell slots does not make the Sorcerer shine, because it does not make the Sorcerer cast more spells than a Wizard (compare the total spells slots that can be created with the Wizard's Arcane Recovery). It is only marginally better in the fact that the Sorcerer is more flexible about what spell level those slots are. It's better than nothing, but it doesn't shine because... see next.

Font of magic fueling flexibility is better than arcane recovery. The complaint here is that sorcery points become so flexible in what they can do (because almost everything gets added to that single resource) that sorcerers expect to do everything those points can do. Added flexibility isn't exactly a restriction. The number of points definitely becomes the bottleneck but there tends to be a lot of choices in what can be done with those points. Arcane recovery can only recover something already spent and that lacks flexibility in slot options.

IME, just using the points in the ways the make the most sense at the time instead of wishing I had enough to use them for everything works out better because adding more points did not actually change what I spent the points on anyway. It just ended up going to more meta-magic as the best choice most of the time.

The bigger picture including ritual casting and spell mastery marginalizes the benefits flexible casting provide, but arcane recovery gets a bit over-rated.

 

[Li Shenron]

Font of magic fueling flexibility is better than arcane recovery. The complaint here is that sorcery points become so flexible in what they can do (because almost everything gets added to that single resource) that sorcerers expect to do everything those points can do. Added flexibility isn't exactly a restriction. The number of points definitely becomes the bottleneck but there tends to be a lot of choices in what can be done with those points. Arcane recovery can only recover something already spent and that lacks flexibility in slot options.

IME, just using the points in the ways the make the most sense at the time instead of wishing I had enough to use them for everything works out better because adding more points did not actually change what I spent the points on anyway. It just ended up going to more meta-magic as the best choice most of the time.

The bigger picture including ritual casting and spell mastery marginalizes the benefits flexible casting provide, but arcane recovery gets a bit over-rated.

Indeed Arcane Recovery by itself is clearly inferior to Sorcery Points used to increase daily casting. The Sorcerer is still said to have an edge when wanting to go "nova" thanks to sorcery points' flexibility. But I still think this alone is not enough to give the Sorcerer class enough uniqueness (perhaps I am biased because in my games there is usually no need to nova), that's why I dread any suggestion to give metamagic to other classes.

By comparison, allowing everyone to Rage would not make a Barbarian character any weaker, but it would make the class as a whole less attractive and meaningful.

 

[Todd Roybark]

It wasn't a wizard thing, though. Every spell caster could learn meta-magic and it wasn't "older editions" so much a that one edition.

The Extension spells were in 1e, and are the precursors to metamagic. While some 2e specialty priest spheres had access to some metamagic spells, (I think), it was mainly a wizard thing.

My Dark Crystal analogy, (beyond signaling my age), also is to demonstrate the Magic User theme used to encompass Talent and Learning.

Now, Talent is a Sorcerer.
Learning is a Wizard.

Greatness in the real world typically requires both. Advanced skills, typically require both......I doubt the number of completely self taught, top flight Brain Surgeons in the world is more than 10 or so, if any.

Now, magic isn’t science, but the wizard is often pigeonholed into being the “scientist magician” in any thread that brings up the Sorcerer/Wizard divide.

A new paradigm is needed, in my opinion.

The Bard class sidesteps, the whole issue, by just being awesome, and capable of doing a good job of representing any archetype.

 

[Ashrym]

Indeed Arcane Recovery by itself is clearly inferior to Sorcery Points used to increase daily casting. The Sorcerer is still said to have an edge when wanting to go "nova" thanks to sorcery points' flexibility. But I still think this alone is not enough to give the Sorcerer class enough uniqueness (perhaps I am biased because in my games there is usually no need to nova), that's why I dread any suggestion to give metamagic to other classes.

The only reason I play sorcerers at all is for meta-magic. I'm not inclined to give that to another class in a similar format either. I don't mind wizard traditions gaining meta-magic types of abilities related to their school, however; a few of those exist and aren't really a concern.

I like to nova once in a while but we typically play longer days and that's not really common. I don't need to spam meta-magic to make it meaningful. I use meta-magic when it matters in important fights and often conserve it.

The Extension spells were in 1e, and are the precursors to metamagic. While some 2e specialty priest spheres had access to some metamagic spells, (I think), it was mainly a wizard thing.

The extension spells in 1e and 2e were spells that targeted other spells. That's like calling counterspell or dispel magic meta-magic. Those spells were cast on a subsequent round if by the same caster using actions and prepared spells. They didn't even need to be cast by the same magic-user, however, and a different caster could extend someone's spell.

I would have a hard time calling that meta-magic in the 3e terms, where it was available to all classes and specifically modified a spell as it was being cast.

My Dark Crystal analogy, (beyond signaling my age), also is to demonstrate the Magic User theme used to encompass Talent and Learning.

We don't play "The Dark Crystal". We play "Dungeons and Dragons". Taking inspiration from pop culture is fine but it conforms to D&D, and not vice-versa.

Vancian casting is not the same as the books from which it originates either but we don't use that to justify changing classes either, and that's a more relevant association.

I am also old. I remember when the movie was new, but read the book first.

Now, magic isn’t science, but the wizard is often pigeonholed into being the “scientist magician” in any thread that brings up the Sorcerer/Wizard divide.

That's because it's how the classes are described. Magic isn't science but INT based wizards are studying magical theory while CHA based sorcerers are born into bloodlines of magic.

The Bard class sidesteps, the whole issue, by just being awesome, and capable of doing a good job of representing any archetype.

Lol, awesome by not having meta-magic, flexible casting, arcane recovery, a ritual book and limited access to the list of spells only available at higher levels?

Bards are weaker casters than either, and mage armor and shield or absorb elements tends to make sorcerers and wizards less squishy than light armor and heroism.

Bards have better skill and ability checks. Bardic inspiration is useful. They are significantly weaker spell casters.

 

[Todd Roybark]

d8 HPs, is great and Ashrym, not sure if you are looking for a fight, but the praise of Bards was in the context of Narrative Flexibility. A Bard represents Talent and Training.