D&D 5E Fighting Style Balance: Offense vs. Defense

[FrogReaver]

And riposte is not entirely controllable for Focus Fire purposes but it often will be. Assuming the one focused on is retaliating

I think there's way to many big assumptions going into it.

 

[Garthanos]

Yes but, the numbers are easier to get higher on it since it keys off dex. That's not a perfect tradeoff, but it's fair enough IMO.

The riposte gets better as your attacks get better and stronger by levelling ... and I think the thing to actually beat for most people's thinking.

 

[Garthanos]

I think there's way to many big assumptions going into it.

Oh we have to make some behavioral assumptions for any of this. The sentinel fighter might figure they are going to attack himself and if they attack an ally will that can be painful for them too its a win win right?

 

[Garthanos]

I'm glad that they didn't make OA's so significant that an enemy would never risk one to position itself or attack a different target.

Almost nobody can now surge forward and gain benefit from attacking on a charge either so there is less benefit from moving AND nobody gets flanking anymore so reasons to move shrug lots fewer for any other reason than more focus fire.

There needs to be real risk if you are actually offering position or movement benefits.
How much is too much? vs what benefits can you get out of it.

Core of this thread though to me attack is almost always better usually because of enemies going down one round faster for an extra attack.... means one fewer attacking you or an ally.

Strangely - they gave those abilities to the hunter ranger in 5e.

The hunter flavored controller ranger had them too but they have fewer ummm lock down abilities.

Riposte has a lot of downsides compared to more "normal" maneuvers. I'm not sure that when it's downsides are factored in that it's actually any more impressive than them. 2 of the biggest ones:

1. Tactically it drives enemies away from what is likely the highest AC PC. If attacking you yields the same results as taking an OA to move away...

I tend to argue its a Striker move not a defender style one... too.

2. It's not front loaded damage

You do decide before knowing it will work that is why the numbers are not far off compared to parry (or rally). I pay attention to that when looking at the numbers.

It does occur to me if they do not know about riposte and attack you then you smack them then they subsequently go to attack an ally and you thrash them over that too... its kind of a bunch of beat down fast. Or they attack the ally not knowing about sentinel and turn on you then you retaliate that. They learn there is no win option but there is a lot of dishing you have already done at that point

Inspiring leader gives everyone temp hp at the start of the day. Rally allows you to top the guy off each round that's being focused on.

Yes but if one was normal hit points it would just be better hmmmm because as it stands they interfere with one another and limit rally.

I had an idea actually perhaps a feat I called
Blood of Kings ... which allowed ones inspiration abilities which allow allies to gain temp hit points like rally or inspiring leadership to heal if the targets are below full hit points and any points that go over become temp hit points. It might even allow temp hit points from your abilities to combine up to an amount based on level + char or something similar.

 

[jgsugden]

Which is more fun for your PC build? That one offers the most power.

 

[FrogReaver]

The riposte gets better as your attacks get better and stronger by levelling ... and I think the thing to actually beat for most people's thinking.

I have a cool idea for a fighter combo. Not sure how good it really is in practice but seems like it will have potential.

Use a longsword 1 handed but no shield. Take the duelist style
Take Trip Attack.
Take Riposte

Turn 1: Action Surge
Part A: Attack + Trip Attack (prone the enemy).
Part B: Grapple the prone enemy
Part C: Continue attacking the enemy
Part D: Enemy has disadvantage against you and can't move. Use riposte when it misses.

 

[Garthanos]

I have a cool idea for a fighter combo. Not sure how good it really is in practice but seems like it will have potential.

Use a longsword 1 handed but no shield. Take the duelist style
Take Trip Attack.
Take Riposte

Turn 1: Action Surge
Part A: Attack + Trip Attack (prone the enemy).
Part B: Grapple the prone enemy
Part C: Continue attacking the enemy
Part D: Enemy has disadvantage against you and can't move. Use riposte when it misses.

How about this Disarm the enemy shove them back move into the the weapons location and object interact with it(kick it to an ally or do whatever you want... perhaps ongoing weak sauce attacks indefinitely.
Or shoot your bow to disarm the enemy with an ally coming up in order and they shove the bad guy etc.

 

[FrogReaver]

How about this Disarm the enemy shove them back move into the the weapons location and object interact with it(kick it to an ally or do whatever you want... perhaps ongoing weak sauce attacks indefinitely.
Or shoot your bow to disarm the enemy with an ally coming up in order and they shove the bad guy etc.

1. Disarming works against far fewer enemies than prone + grapple does.
2. Disarming only works if you or ally can get to weapon before an enemy which isn't nearly guaranteed.
3. Disarming only works if the enemy doesn't have a secondary weapon. (Many MM enemies have both a bow and a sword for example).

 

[Garthanos]

1. Disarming works against far fewer enemies than prone + grapple does.

Some of my favorite campaigns are very humanocentric... that isnt necessarily the truth but given the potential of damage nerf shrug sometimes its awesome is good enough for me.
If I can know enough of them maneuvers.

2. Disarming only works if you or ally can get to weapon before an enemy which isn't nearly guaranteed.

It is indeed not guaranteed that my shove will move him out of the area. neither was the trip or the grapple... come again?
Mine is a pretty cheap trick and if part fails I can action surge to fix that too

3. Disarming only works if the enemy doesn't have a secondary weapon. (Many MM enemies have both a bow and a sword for example).

A bow? with me five feet away because I moved into his vacated square? sure I get advantage for that. (or he beats feet and I get an opportunity attack)

just realized I was assuming level 5 well whatever.

 

[Garthanos]

The maneuvering attack can rarely give golden results ... the person taking that is gambling on his allies messing up in some specific ways and him fixing it... AND that one is either offensively valuable or defensively valuable, or not useful at all.