D&D General A paladin just joined the group. I'm a necromancer.

[Lanefan]

Just because objective morality exists, doesnt mean that a creature cant change its alignment.

It's worth keeping in mind that depending on system there could be in-game ramifications and-or penalties for doing so. 1e by RAW, for example, was pretty harsh on this.

 

[Lanefan]

Just to be sure I'm following: Your argument is that one can make alignment changes to Orcs by RAW but cannot make alignment changes to Zombies by RAW?

Actually this kinda makes sense.

Zombies, being undead and also being incapable of independent thought, can easily be seen as all being the same. Thus, what applies to one applies to all; there's no variance.

Orcs, being living sentient creatures capable of independent thought, can vary from their typical alignment. Thus, what the MM gives for them is more of a racial or cultural average.

 

[Iry]

While it is certainly not for every character, there is also the option of just shrugging at the evil alignment and hooking up with a neutral god. It's a reasonable way to avoid a naughty word afterlife if the multiverse hates you.

 

[Flamestrike]

As long as things stay in character the game doesn't stop, and IMO nor should it. If that what the characters are gonna do then that's what they'll do, and I'm quite happy to let it play out whether I'm DM or - as in this case - player.

I wholly disagree. The DM is more than an adjudicator of actions; his role is also to teach the game, and ensure the game runs smoothly. He's also an entertainer who is trying to maximise enjoyment at the table.

Having your PC killed by another PC is not 'fun'. Having your PC who killed that PC booted from the party (and thus effectively also removed from the game) is also not 'fun'.

A wise DM presses the pause button and is clear with this player what the likely ramifications are of his action are (I am going to change your alignment to evil, this is why. Also, it is all but certain the other PCs will boot you from the party on account of being a psychopath who murders helpless companions in cold blood. Are you sure you want to lose this character?).

He then has a chat with the player in between session to explain things in any further detail, including how the Gods in his world view morality, to discuss the PvP aspect and so forth.

 

[Flamestrike]

While it is certainly not for every character, there is also the option of just shrugging at the evil alignment and hooking up with a neutral god. It's a reasonable way to avoid a naughty word afterlife if the multiverse hates you.

Your PC likely doesnt realise he's evil. He likely thinks he's a Good guy, just doing what needs to be done for the greater good.

Most evildoers think they're actually good people. They rationalise away murder, slavery, torture or whatever as necessary evils, or righteous as they're 'only' torturing or killing bad guys, or as a means to a greater good.

Heck; I had a LE Cleric of Bane in FR who was trying to establish a fascist theocracy, via pogroms, genocide and holy war. He would willingly engage in torture, and saw mercy as a weakness.

His goal was to unite Faerun under one God, one Culture, one Nation and one Race to end all conflict and create a lawful utopia where crime was punished harshly, the Rule of Law was followed, and a Golden age for mankind would prosper.

He genuinely thought of himself as good, and thought his former deity (Torm) to be deluded and evil.

 

[Helldritch]

The shades of grey of our society is permating our game of black and white truths. What makes D&D fun, whatever the edition, is the fact that moraly, it is very clear. Evil is evil, period. You do not ask if something is evil. You draw your swords and spells and slay the beasts. If you want to play shades of gray, it is quite ok, but it is not raw (or rai for that matters). It never was and never will.

 

[Lanefan]

I wholly disagree. The DM is more than an adjudicator of actions; his role is also to teach the game, and ensure the game runs smoothly. He's also an entertainer who is trying to maximise enjoyment at the table.

Having your PC killed by another PC is not 'fun'. Having your PC who killed that PC booted from the party (and thus effectively also removed from the game) is also not 'fun'.

Being crunched into the boards by a bodycheck in hockey* isn't 'fun' either, but physical play is an integral part of the game**; and if I'm not willing to get hit now and then I shouldn't be on the ice.

* - which I've never really played; or in broomball, which I have.
** - despite the whines of those who'd rather have it otherwise.

As for D&D, things like this are all just part of the game in my view, and if I couldn't stand the heat I'd stay out of the kitchen. I brought in an Evil character knowing the risk, and this time the risk bit me. Call the penalties, drop the puck, and let's get on with the game.

 

[Aldarc]

The shades of grey of our society is permating our game of black and white truths. What makes D&D fun, whatever the edition, is the fact that moraly, it is very clear. Evil is evil, period. You do not ask if something is evil. You draw your swords and spells and slay the beasts. If you want to play shades of gray, it is quite ok, but it is not raw (or rai for that matters). It never was and never will.

Considering the popularity of Greyhawk, which focuses on morally ambiguous protagonists; Planescape, which focuses on a morally ambiguous cosmology and ideologies; and Eberron, which focuses on a a morally ambiguous political landscape, I'm not sure if this assessment really matches a lot of actual D&D play. Maybe the play of settings like Forgotten Realms that seems to presume more heroic protagonistic play without as much moral complexity.

 

[Maxperson]

Considering the popularity of Greyhawk, which focuses on morally ambiguous protagonists; Planescape, which focuses on a morally ambiguous cosmology and ideologies; and Eberron, which focuses on a a morally ambiguous political landscape, I'm not sure if this assessment really matches a lot of actual D&D play. Maybe the play of settings like Forgotten Realms that seems to presume more heroic protagonistic play without as much moral complexity.

There is nothing morally ambiguous about Planescape. I assume you mean how belief can alter the cosmos. That's not morally ambiguous. If enough people on an out plane layer shift beliefs, the layer of that plane can shift from one outer plane, say the Nine Hells and go to another, say the Abyss. All that's really happening, though, is that plane going from one morally unambiguous belief system(LE) to another morally unambiguous belief system(CE).

 

[Aldarc]

There is nothing morally ambiguous about Planescape. I assume you mean how belief can alter the cosmos. That's not morally ambiguous. If enough people on an out plane layer shift beliefs, the layer of that plane can shift from one outer plane, say the Nine Hells and go to another, say the Abyss. All that's really happening, though, is that plane going from one morally unambiguous belief system(LE) to another morally unambiguous belief system(CE).

Yeah, that lends an air of nihilistic sophistry to the setting, which I find quite morally ambiguous. Factor into the fact that the setting prides itself having a city where angels and demons can have a friendly drink together in a bar, and I'd say you have quite a bit more moral ambiguity than what seems to be otherwise presumed regarding objective morality.