D&D 5E Why is there a Forgery Kit?

[bedir than]

Nope, not normally, but thieves tools and that ability are far more common, and more commonly in demand from session to session. In an urban intrigue game you might legitimately need more than one character who can pick locks, but you probably only need one forger. That said, for a special lock, you could treat it in much the same way. If it were a lock of legend lets say, forged by a master locksmith and reputed to be unpickable, then maybe you could have the need to get a specific key to study, or gain access to another lock forged by the same smith.

I would enjoy you as a DM in an urban campaign, because that seems fun

 

[Reynard]

If your Monk with Calligraphy wants to forge a document, let them. Don't make them take Forgery to do it.

I agree with this is if it a sort of one off event. If the campaign involves a lot of forgery because it is deeply embedded in the advanced bureaucracy of the Throne or whatever, it better to require someone to spend some time learning forgery (though I would let the monk with calligraphy spend less time or money learning it since the skills are associated).

As to the degree to which a forger might need specialized paper, ink or whatever: it isn't a medieval world or even a renaissance one. it is a fantasy world. Maybe the court wizard custom fabricates every official document, other wax seal is enchanted or any number of things. If you are having trouble figuring out how officials might protect important documents, set up a scenario in which the players have to do so. I bet they come up with some crazy awesome solutions using everything at their disposal in the PHB.

 

[Guest 6801328]

As to the degree to which a forger might need specialized paper, ink or whatever: it isn't a medieval world or even a renaissance one. it is a fantasy world. Maybe the court wizard custom fabricates every official document, other wax seal is enchanted or any number of things.

Exactly.

But good luck convincing somebody with some art training IRL that any other opinion should matter.

EDIT: It's not that the original thesis of this thread is wrong. But given that the game treats the skills, and the equipment, as different, I treat that as opportunity to invent reasons why.

 

[Fenris-77]

I would enjoy you as a DM in an urban campaign, because that seems fun

Thanks! Urban intrigue is probably my favorite kind of D&D campaign. One of the things that really makes a game like that hum is the complex tasks like the lock or forgery examples above. They bring a real sense of progression to a game that can seem overly sandboxy otherwise. It gives the party a nice series of goals to help move the narrative along between major plot crescendos. I use a lot of ideas and even some mechanics from Blades in the Dark for the same reason - BitD makes urban intrigue a joy to run.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Exactly.

But good luck convincing somebody with some art training IRL that any other opinion should matter.

Dude, sneering at facts because they relate to art, is a pretty bad show, frankly. What next "Art majors eh? Hahaha". This isn't "a matter of opinion". The way forgery works is extremely well-established.

The idea of a "forgery kit" in D&D as a separate proficiency from "calligrapher's supplies" is fundamentally ridiculous. Nothing is going to get away from that. The best you can do is treat "Forgery Kit" as the equivalent of a "Martial Weapon Proficiency", and "calligrapher's supplies" as a "Simple Weapon Proficiency". The forgery kit is just better than the calligrapher's supplies. It's 1d8 vs 1d6 or whatever. Anything the calligrapher can do, the forger can do. And with a bit of practice and the right materials, the calligrapher can probably forge things pretty damn well.

Maybe the court wizard custom fabricates every official document, other wax seal is enchanted or any number of things. If you are having trouble figuring out how officials might protect important documents, set up a scenario in which the players have to do so. I bet they come up with some crazy awesome solutions using everything at their disposal in the PHB.

Sure. But if so, re: magic seal or wizard-fabricated documents, the big challenge is getting those things, because the forgery can't succeed without them, and it should make no difference which kit you have proficiency in, because you're not actually using that kit, you're using a skill, and the materials are the key part.

 

[Guest 6801328]

The way forgery works is extremely well-established.

Not in a fantasy world.

I mean, you're welcome to interpret it any way you like. I tend to get over-realistic about black/bladesmithing in my games because I'm into it IRL. But I'm not going to start complaining on the forums about the unrealistic encumbrance value of a blacksmith's kit. (Caveat: I don't actually know what the encumbrance value of a blacksmith's kit is.)

But you're trying to bludgeon everybody into submission with your opinions. Or it seems that way, anyway.

 

[Prakriti]

Even by Xanathar's, forgery is just the more difficult activities given a lower DC.

You are missing the most obvious and correct answer here, which is that Xanathar's Guide is not a very good book. Rewriting the core rules because of a bad supplement is not the way to go. The way to go is to ignore the bad supplement where it conflicts with the core rules.

 

[Fenris-77]

The idea of a "forgery kit" in D&D as a separate proficiency from "calligrapher's supplies" is fundamentally ridiculous. Nothing is going to get away from that.

I don't find it ridiculous. I can easily picture how the one might differ from the other, and I can also think of a bunch of reasons why they aren't the same proficiency from a game design standpoint. An artist, like a calligrapher, would have a kit that included his favored tools - the sort of nibs and ink he prefers, the type and color of wax he likes best, whatever parchment suits his needs and tastes - you get the picture, an artists build a kit based on personal preference. Putting a forgery kit together is entirely different, you pick nibs and inks common to certain kinds of document production and in a wide enough range to cover most of the likely needs, you have a variety of paper common to different sorts of usage, etc etc. The rationale behind the construction and use of the two is entirely different.

I'm not going to argue that the skill set needed to use the two doesn't overlap, because it does, but I think there's enough separation that the fact that they are currently different in D&D isn't obviously ridiculous.

 

[bedir than]

You are missing the most obvious and correct answer here, which is that Xanathar's Guide is not a very good book. Rewriting the core rules because of a bad supplement is not the way to go. The way to go is to ignore the bad supplement where it conflicts with the core rules.

The core rules establish no use for any tool

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Not in a fantasy world.

This is not good logic. None of the other kits are particularly fantastical.

I mean, you're welcome to interpret it any way you like. I tend to get over-realistic about black/bladesmithing in my games because I'm into it IRL. But I'm not going to start complaining on the forums about the unrealistic encumbrance value of a blacksmith's kit. (Caveat: I don't actually know what the encumbrance value of a blacksmith's kit is.)

But you're trying to bludgeon everybody into submission with your opinions. Or it seems that way, anyway.

I mean, these are facts. We've seen some truly ridiculous and ill-informed assertions about how things work here, and those assertions have been based on real-world stuff, just really silly though.

The problem is that there are two kits which cover the same ground, except one covers slightly more. Neither is actually plausible for high-end forgery, and either would do for low-end forgery. It's like if "Swordsmith's tools" were totally a different proficiency from "Blacksmith's tools". You'd probably be complaining about that.

I like the idea of fantastical stuff that makes forgery harder, but it doesn't even interact with the problem I'm discussing, which is of overlap, because the forgery kit can't cope with that stuff, based on its description. And let's be real, in most fantasy settings, about 95% of what is happening is mundane, including most forgery.

To me it feels a bit like you're angry with me because I know a lot about this sort of thing and care a bit about it, rather than anything else. I can understand that, but I just don't hold with this idea "It's fantasy so the tools for this mundane task will inherently be different and impossible to judge". In some specific settings, that will be true, for sure (Earthdawn probably, for example), but in others? Not so much.