D&D 5E Why is there a Forgery Kit?

[Guest 6801328]

My point was that a lot of the points in this thread have been made out of apparent ignorance

Could you give some examples?

 

[Fenris-77]

Good thing literally no-one has said that. So that's a weird point to make. My point was that a lot of the points in this thread have been made out of apparent ignorance, and Elfcrusher was specifically making an ad hominem attack, which I mocked by pointing out it's similarity to typical ignorant sneering at "art majors", which you seem to have extrapolated into something else entirely.

I was just clarifying what his post was talking about, Since you initial reply seemed at odds what what I thought was his point. That kind of argument from authority is quite common in discussions about fantasy RPGs. I'm not pointing any fingers, just trying to clarify.

And frankly, your background should win you some points. I notice whilst you've been a bit oblique (which is fine, I'm sure I'm obtuse at times), you haven't made any points from ignorance. At least you know how the basic process works. Some of the claims in this thread could only be made by someone who didn't even know that much.

I actually go out of my way not to lean into my background, as being overt about it generally leads to a several page long digression about appeals to authority. I don't actually care much for the tool proficiency as an idea for 5E. I think it would have made more sense to just have common and class skills, with the common skills being the ones currently attached to the tools. With that in mind I mostly treat them like skills anyway. So for 5e I'm fine with a character proficient in calligraphy not having the same change to forge a document as one proficient in calligraphy. I would let the character with Calligraphy make an attempt though, as the skills do pretty obviously overlap, I'd just probably set the DC higher. Getting all granular about the contents of the kit and historical examples seldom helps me except in a very general way. It's fun to bounce back and forth of course, its just not important enough for me to get upset about.

 

[Chaosmancer]

So, I tend to agree with Ruin Explorer, and I want to set somethings aside to explain.

I don't care about the kits and supplies at all. You can buy anything you need later, so it doesn't matter. I want to focus exclusively on the proficiency and the skills that come with it

I present to you "Mason's Tools" this is the only tool set for working with stone. It covers building walls and creating statues, because we have no other tools.

How about "Water Vehicles"? That covers everything from a canoe to a Galleon. Every style of sailing from a longship's rowing to box sails, to things I don't even know about.

So, seeing how broad those skills are, why should Calligraphy (writing) not cover forgery via writing? I'd say the same thing about woodcarver's tools and carpentry. I don't really think we need to have some skill sets divided when others are not. And since so few tool sets really get utilized, I'm happier with them being combined.

 

[Fenris-77]

I wouldn't have a problem with it either way. Both calligraphy and forgery are low to no use skills, depending on the campaign, so why not. I think D&D characters should have more skills, not less.

 

[bedir than]

I do want Farming Tools, too

 

[Guest 6801328]

So, I tend to agree with Ruin Explorer, and I want to set somethings aside to explain.

I don't care about the kits and supplies at all. You can buy anything you need later, so it doesn't matter. I want to focus exclusively on the proficiency and the skills that come with it

I present to you "Mason's Tools" this is the only tool set for working with stone. It covers building walls and creating statues, because we have no other tools.

How about "Water Vehicles"? That covers everything from a canoe to a Galleon. Every style of sailing from a longship's rowing to box sails, to things I don't even know about.

So, seeing how broad those skills are, why should Calligraphy (writing) not cover forgery via writing? I'd say the same thing about woodcarver's tools and carpentry. I don't really think we need to have some skill sets divided when others are not. And since so few tool sets really get utilized, I'm happier with them being combined.

Like I said, I'm not opposed to them being combined, or of letting calligraphers and forgers overlap some, or whatever. If I go by the rules in this case, it's only because it's not a big deal either way.

 

[Coroc]

...
Imho "forgery kit" should be removed from the game. .
...

Agree with your whole post except the cut out quote.

A forgery kit does not only consist of some pens ink wax and so on, as you already noticed tools like small knives and scraping tools are also part of it.

Think about : Forging a whole document is one thing modifying an existing is another!
e.g. you need to put the characters name on some invitation or passport intended for someone else.

I agree wholeheartedly on your opinion that a forger should absolutely be given the chance to forge art also. He even could be better at forging aka copying a painting - if he knows the basics about the paintstyle
(e.g. oil, aquarelle etc.) - than someone who just is a painter.

 

[MNblockhead]

Interesting. Now that I think about it, it seems superfluous. I would say that calligraphy and deception should be sufficient for forging official documents, just like I would use blacksmith tools plus deception to attempt to make a fake copy of an official scepter or ceremonial blade.

But I try to run games RAW for the most part. In that spirit, I would say that a forgers kit will have some additional tools / materials for quickly taking impressions of seals, making palimpsests (or just removing selective text), "aging" paper, mixing different types of inks, etc. Also, because this is D&D, maybe some low-level magic. Maybe it include components for spells to imbue paper or inks with low level illusion effects to make them more believable. Or, better, so that the forgery doesn't detect as magic, then magic that help the forger copy the documents.

 

[Charlaquin]

Even that's a stretch, because it's likely that matching exact document appearance would actually rely on simply obtaining the same material (if the person was familiar with the specific example of the specific document), or be unnecessary, because you just really just need to make the seal/signature/etc. look right.

I suppose there's art forgery, but that's got the same issue - it's just the tools the appropriate artist would use.

Pretty sure this is just a result of not thinking it through on the part of the designers.

I think it’s likely less a result of not thinking it through, and more a result of wanting forgery to require a different proficiency than crafting, but due to the way the system is built, needing other to be a separate type of tool to make that work.

Personally, I’d be inclined to allow (or require, depending on how you look at it) a character with proficiency in forgery kit to make a counterfeit version of anything you could make with a set of artisan’s tools, provided they have the tools that would normally be required to make a genuine version.

 

[Charlaquin]

The core rules establish no use for any tool

That’s not true. Tool proficiency allows you to add your proficiency bonus to an ability check where knowledge of how to use said tools might improve the character’s chance of success on the task. They’re basically just skills, and potentially quite versatile ones.