D&D 5E Why is there a Forgery Kit?

[bedir than]

That’s not true. Tool proficiency allows you to add your proficiency bonus to an ability check where knowledge of how to use said tools might improve the character’s chance of success on the task. They’re basically just skills, and potentially quite versatile ones.

With zero examples as to how that would work, unlike most skills, which do have examples and specific rules for them.
The only thing in character generation that's less useful than a tool is a Language.

 

[Reynard]

With zero examples as to how that would work, unlike most skills, which do have examples and specific rules for them.
The only thing in character generation that's less useful than a tool is a Language.

Languages are much more useful and also intuitive in their use.

 

[Ovinomancer]

Here's a different approach:

The cost of a forgery going undetected can be devastating. Forged movement orders for an army. Forged tax receipts for a barony. Forged letters between nobles resulting in charges of treason. Etc, etc. As such, and this is historically backed, the efforts to prevent forgeries are often complex, sophisticated, and/or baroque. Crafting a forgery is a time consuming and difficult process because of this. While an expert forger would also be able to replicate calligraphy, or perhaps art, they do so with care and time, not at all like a scribe taking notes or copying manuscripts where speed and legibility are the only concerns or an artist creating a new piece of art. The artistry of the forger is different -- it is the careful art of precise recreation.

Because of this, I very much see a difference between a skilled forger, who might replicate a particular scribe's calligraphy or the artistry of a wax seal or the precise kind and arrangement of ribbon affixed or even a master's painting, and the actual work of a scribe or artist. The forger will take more time to create the work than a legitimate creator with the proper tools at hand, and will be focused on recreation rather than creation. D&D usually isn't going to climb that far into the details to explain how various courts or organizations protect against forgery or how a forger goes about doing the work, but it still makes good sense to separate out the skills, even if just in tool proficiencies. I'd definitely let a calligrapher attempt a forgery of writing, but the challenge would be greater using scribe's tools rather than forger's tools. Same for art. Forgery, while often incorporating art and writing, isn't actually creating art or writing for pay.

 

[Reynard]

Just for fun, let's figure out what would be some good ways for D&D universe officials to combat forgery, and ways that forgers might try and overcome those protections.

Low level, illusory script is a good start since it is unreadable to anyone not designated as a reader, and has a long enough duration to be useful.

Locate object can be used as a tool to spot forgeries. You get the message from the king and then "locate messages from the king." If the one you are holding doesn't ding, you know it is a forgery.

At high levels, you could use fabricate to make official documents from material not normally able to be easily worked by mundane craft, such as making paper out of cocatrice feathers or whatever.

 

[LordEntrails]

Personally I think the question should be; Why is their a calligrapher's kit? And why do we care if someone is proficient in it?

I've never had a session where someone wanted to write something nice and flowy and fancy. But I've often had players want to forge documents and seals.

 

[billd91]

Personally I think the question should be; Why is their a calligrapher's kit? And why do we care if someone is proficient in it?

I've never had a session where someone wanted to write something nice and flowy and fancy. But I've often had players want to forge documents and seals.

A lot will depend on the campaign. I’ve run campaigns where calligraphic skills have actually been useful, same with cook, herbalism, and a whole bunch of other non-adventuring skills. If you indicate you’ll value it as DM, your players will find uses for such skills.

 

[Guest 6801328]

Here's a different approach:

The cost of a forgery going undetected can be devastating. Forged movement orders for an army. Forged tax receipts for a barony. Forged letters between nobles resulting in charges of treason. Etc, etc. As such, and this is historically backed, the efforts to prevent forgeries are often complex, sophisticated, and/or baroque. Crafting a forgery is a time consuming and difficult process because of this. While an expert forger would also be able to replicate calligraphy, or perhaps art, they do so with care and time, not at all like a scribe taking notes or copying manuscripts where speed and legibility are the only concerns or an artist creating a new piece of art. The artistry of the forger is different -- it is the careful art of precise recreation.

Because of this, I very much see a difference between a skilled forger, who might replicate a particular scribe's calligraphy or the artistry of a wax seal or the precise kind and arrangement of ribbon affixed or even a master's painting, and the actual work of a scribe or artist. The forger will take more time to create the work than a legitimate creator with the proper tools at hand, and will be focused on recreation rather than creation. D&D usually isn't going to climb that far into the details to explain how various courts or organizations protect against forgery or how a forger goes about doing the work, but it still makes good sense to separate out the skills, even if just in tool proficiencies. I'd definitely let a calligrapher attempt a forgery of writing, but the challenge would be greater using scribe's tools rather than forger's tools. Same for art. Forgery, while often incorporating art and writing, isn't actually creating art or writing for pay.

Also, a good forger can help detect forgeries.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Personally I think the question should be; Why is their a calligrapher's kit? And why do we care if someone is proficient in it?

I've never had a session where someone wanted to write something nice and flowy and fancy. But I've often had players want to forge documents and seals.

This is sort of why I want to combine them, and save art forgery for people with the proper art proficiencies.

I get what @Ovinomancer is going for, but my experience with artists just makes me see forging as a sub-skill of the main tool set. For example, there is a channel I watch called Drawfee. Great people, great art. Especially a lady by the name of Julia, she is just amazing. And they did a series of videos where they copied styles, either each other's style or the style of famous artists, and they talked through the process and some of them were incredibly close.

Look at fanart sites, where people copy the designs of animated characters. Many of the best artists make stuff that looks nearly identical to the original work.

And, while I understand the idea that the Calligrapher and the Forger have a different approach, I would find it weird to have a forgery proficiency and that be the one for all writing. Because the Calligraphy set in Xanathar's does give a few uses that are interesting for the game, and forgery is a subset of that.

Actually, reading forgery, here is an odd thing. Forgery specifically calls out combining it with other tool sets. Like if you had cartographers and forgery tools, you can make a fake map. But there is no talk of fake maps with Cartographer's tools. But, which skill by itself is more likely to let you make a fake map? Knowledge of how to copy another person's handwriting, or knowledge of making maps?

I don't think Calligraphry can fully stand on it's own, but forgery definetly can't stand on it's own. To forge a painting you need painting tools, to forge a statue, you need knowledge of mason's tools, Woodcarvers (or carpenty) tools or blacksmith's tools. To forge a ceramic pot, you need knowledge of Potter's tools.

The only forgery that you seem to be able to do solely with forger's tools is writing, which is the realm of Calligrapher's tools. So, I would just melt them together and call it day, because tools profs tend to be broad anyways. Just have Forgery be a high DC version of any of the normal skill profs.

 

[MNblockhead]

With zero examples as to how that would work, unlike most skills, which do have examples and specific rules for them.
The only thing in character generation that's less useful than a tool is a Language.

Really?

Sorry, but I just can't relate to that. As a DM I call for tool proficiencies to be used all the time. Part of it is because I use the Xanathar's rules to give them more crunch, but also because I'll require proficiency to make certain checks. At least players will have to come up with other logic approaches to get a result that would normally require tool proficiencies.

Some come up more often than others, but I try to make all of them worth while.

Languages are also important. Not everyone speaks common. Also, even if they do, if you speak in their language I may give you advantage on persuasion, intimidation, insight, deception, and entertainment skill checks and, in some cases, disadvantage if you don't.

 

[Ovinomancer]

This is sort of why I want to combine them, and save art forgery for people with the proper art proficiencies.

I get what @Ovinomancer is going for, but my experience with artists just makes me see forging as a sub-skill of the main tool set. For example, there is a channel I watch called Drawfee. Great people, great art. Especially a lady by the name of Julia, she is just amazing. And they did a series of videos where they copied styles, either each other's style or the style of famous artists, and they talked through the process and some of them were incredibly close.

Look at fanart sites, where people copy the designs of animated characters. Many of the best artists make stuff that looks nearly identical to the original work.

And, while I understand the idea that the Calligrapher and the Forger have a different approach, I would find it weird to have a forgery proficiency and that be the one for all writing. Because the Calligraphy set in Xanathar's does give a few uses that are interesting for the game, and forgery is a subset of that.

Actually, reading forgery, here is an odd thing. Forgery specifically calls out combining it with other tool sets. Like if you had cartographers and forgery tools, you can make a fake map. But there is no talk of fake maps with Cartographer's tools. But, which skill by itself is more likely to let you make a fake map? Knowledge of how to copy another person's handwriting, or knowledge of making maps?

I don't think Calligraphry can fully stand on it's own, but forgery definetly can't stand on it's own. To forge a painting you need painting tools, to forge a statue, you need knowledge of mason's tools, Woodcarvers (or carpenty) tools or blacksmith's tools. To forge a ceramic pot, you need knowledge of Potter's tools.

The only forgery that you seem to be able to do solely with forger's tools is writing, which is the realm of Calligrapher's tools. So, I would just melt them together and call it day, because tools profs tend to be broad anyways. Just have Forgery be a high DC version of any of the normal skill profs.

Right, but is incredibly close good enough to fool a serious examination? Getting close is usually only good in the forgery world for scamming the unaware, where someone thinks that similarity is proof. Again, the cost of undetected forgery is high, so people have always gone to lengths to make forgery difficult. It isn't just a modern thing. People in times past were just as smart. People in a fantasy world would also treat forgery quite seriously, because, as I said, costs.

Again, this isn't an argument that artist's tools or calligrapher's tools cannot be used for forgery, or that artists or calligraphers cannot forge things. Of course they should be able to try, but it should be more difficult if you do not have the proper tools to make a thing as accurate as possible. This goes for art, as well, as things like canvas quality or aging effects can be critical to a good forgery but aren't things usually included in art supplies.