D&D 5E Why is there a Forgery Kit?

[Guest 6801328]

Right, but is incredibly close good enough to fool a serious examination? Getting close is usually only good in the forgery world for scamming the unaware, where someone thinks that similarity is proof. Again, the cost of undetected forgery is high, so people have always gone to lengths to make forgery difficult. It isn't just a modern thing. People in times past were just as smart. People in a fantasy world would also treat forgery quite seriously, because, as I said, costs.

Again, this isn't an argument that artist's tools or calligrapher's tools cannot be used for forgery, or that artists or calligraphers cannot forge things. Of course they should be able to try, but it should be more difficult if you do not have the proper tools to make a thing as accurate as possible. This goes for art, as well, as things like canvas quality or aging effects can be critical to a good forgery but aren't things usually included in art supplies.

And if any trained calligrapher or painter could do a good forgery, well, they'd probably up the ante to try to make it more difficult.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Right, but is incredibly close good enough to fool a serious examination? Getting close is usually only good in the forgery world for scamming the unaware, where someone thinks that similarity is proof. Again, the cost of undetected forgery is high, so people have always gone to lengths to make forgery difficult. It isn't just a modern thing. People in times past were just as smart. People in a fantasy world would also treat forgery quite seriously, because, as I said, costs.

Again, this isn't an argument that artist's tools or calligrapher's tools cannot be used for forgery, or that artists or calligraphers cannot forge things. Of course they should be able to try, but it should be more difficult if you do not have the proper tools to make a thing as accurate as possible. This goes for art, as well, as things like canvas quality or aging effects can be critical to a good forgery but aren't things usually included in art supplies.

I think we are agreeing with each other.

Of course amatuer artists who are paying homage aren't trying to forge pieces that will pass a professional examination, but that isn't the point.

The point is that the skill set is the same. You cannot forge paintings if you are not a painter. You just can't do it.

And of course, you need the proper tools, but a forgery kit isn't the proper tools for forging a painting. Heck, painter's tools might not be good enough if you need goblin-berry red to accurately use the same paint.

But buying the proper materials isn't a skill. Aging effects only matter if you need to age something, and again, have nothing to do with the skill, they are probably a bit of alchemtist supplies to be honest, if you want to get really clever with "ancient text"

But, Water Vehicles, covers everything from a single-seat canoe to a 500 strong War Galleon. So why can't Calligraphy proficiency include knowledge of how to age paper so it looks like the same paper in a book you are repairing? I'm speaking only about the skill proficiency, the physical objects just need to be purchased.

 

[bedir than]

Really?

Sorry, but I just can't relate to that. As a DM I call for tool proficiencies to be used all the time. Part of it is because I use the Xanathar's rules to give them more crunch, but also because I'll require proficiency to make certain checks. At least players will have to come up with other logic approaches to get a result that would normally require tool proficiencies.

Some come up more often than others, but I try to make all of them worth while.

Languages are also important. Not everyone speaks common. Also, even if they do, if you speak in their language I may give you advantage on persuasion, intimidation, insight, deception, and entertainment skill checks and, in some cases, disadvantage if you don't.

I definitely work with my players on how and when their tools would apply. I don't do that because of the PHB having clear directions.

 

[MNblockhead]

I definitely work with my players on how and when their tools would apply. I don't do that because of the PHB having clear directions.

Gotcha. You are not alone, I'm sure that's what the rules and Xanathar's try to address. Do you use the Xanathar rules? What do you think of them?

 

[Ovinomancer]

I think we are agreeing with each other.

Of course amatuer artists who are paying homage aren't trying to forge pieces that will pass a professional examination, but that isn't the point.

The point is that the skill set is the same. You cannot forge paintings if you are not a painter. You just can't do it.

I disagree, here. One may be a masterful copier, taking a year to replicate a painting in a painstaking process, and yet not be able to successfully be a painter. I think there are a few cases of a middling to poor painter creating very good forgeries. And, remember, using a tool untrained just means you don't get a proficiency bonus. So, you can be an excellent forgery of paintings, but not be considered a 'painter'.

And of course, you need the proper tools, but a forgery kit isn't the proper tools for forging a painting. Heck, painter's tools might not be good enough if you need goblin-berry red to accurately use the same paint.

But buying the proper materials isn't a skill. Aging effects only matter if you need to age something, and again, have nothing to do with the skill, they are probably a bit of alchemtist supplies to be honest, if you want to get really clever with "ancient text"

There's more to it than this. You're simplifying to create an equivalency that doesn't really exist. It's not a matter of buying the right supplies -- if it were that easy, then forgeries would be easy. It's a matter of knowing what you actually need to make a forgery or, how to use supplies to create a false effect than appears to be a true one. Painting weather in a few decades. It's not just a matter of getting the right paint.

But, we're in the weeds, here, arguing details. The point is, undetected forgeries cost, and people take extra care to protect against forgeries. It's not a matter of getting close in style -- if it were that easy, there's never be surety of authenticity. So, there must be something to forging things (documents, paintings, etc.) that's going above and beyond to foil the detection methods in place. We don't need to know what those details are because we can just leverage the forgery kit proficiency to tell us if a PC does a good enough job on those details to pass off a fake.

But, Water Vehicles, covers everything from a single-seat canoe to a 500 strong War Galleon. So why can't Calligraphy proficiency include knowledge of how to age paper so it looks like the same paper in a book you are repairing? I'm speaking only about the skill proficiency, the physical objects just need to be purchased.

This is a squirrel argument. That water vehicles can be pointed at as applying to a broad category of water vehicles may or may not be a compelling argument, but it doesn't have much to do with forgery kits.

 

[Theo R Cwithin]

Personally, I like having a distinction between the kits if only because something called a "forgery kit" just sounds illicit. It's considered contraband, and those in possession of one are considered criminals-- just like thieves' tools.

It's not RAW, but I like to think a forgery kit contains a few high-end and ordinary doc supplies (paper, quills, ink, sealing wax, erasers, tracing paper, etc), as well as a selection of forms, letterhead, stamps, ID blanks, foil seals, unused ticket books, blank bank note, etc, swiped from official sources. It might even include some sort of fantastical configurable embossing tool, paper-aging solutions, jewelers' loup, and so forth. In addition to the basic writing &/or art skills needed, the proficiency mostly implies maintaining a working local knowledge of the jargon, codes, forms, etc, of the trades & offices being mimicked; as well as keeping the kit stocked with whatever basic docs might come in handy wherever the forger is at the time (and surreptitiously disposing of the unused illegal materials). Of course, this could mean a "forgery kit" is just "calligraphy supplies + illegal docs".

Forgery, imo, isn't really about making a perfect fake document, so much as creating a passably fake document for the situation, one that's "good enough" to get past the right person under the right circumstances at the right time. Generally, that's at least as much a question of understanding the mindset of the mark inspecting the forgery, as it is of reproducing/altering the physical document itself.

Note that this means that there certainly are cases where perfection is required, like the classic royal wedding invite or kingly scepter. For those, an artistic skill is obviously required to pull off the forgery. But there's an enormous range of what constitutes a "useful" forgery where that degree of artistic skill isn't really necessary, and it just boils down to understanding the specific needs & risks of that particular situation and not wasting any more effort or expense than necessary. (And this is even reflected in the "create a fake in a short rest" -type situations.)

 

[Don Durito]

I just roll Sleight of Hand back into Thievery, like in 4E and include it as part of the skill.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I disagree, here. One may be a masterful copier, taking a year to replicate a painting in a painstaking process, and yet not be able to successfully be a painter. I think there are a few cases of a middling to poor painter creating very good forgeries. And, remember, using a tool untrained just means you don't get a proficiency bonus. So, you can be an excellent forgery of paintings, but not be considered a 'painter'.

I've never heard of a single case of that, and I'd argue that making your own unique painting requires creativity, not skill in painting. Meanwhile, copying the flow of another person's work, their line depth, ect, requires you to understand those details and how to recreate them. Which by default, falls under the skill of the painter's tools.

Also, taking a year to copy would be the equivalent in DnD terms of taking a 20. Anyone could successfully forge something if you let them take a 20 on the skill, even if they have no skill in the relevant work.

Amusingly, since it would require a lot of money and more than 250 days, it would also potentially qualify them for proficiency in the tool set.

There's more to it than this. You're simplifying to create an equivalency that doesn't really exist. It's not a matter of buying the right supplies -- if it were that easy, then forgeries would be easy. It's a matter of knowing what you actually need to make a forgery or, how to use supplies to create a false effect than appears to be a true one. Painting weather in a few decades. It's not just a matter of getting the right paint.

But, we're in the weeds, here, arguing details. The point is, undetected forgeries cost, and people take extra care to protect against forgeries. It's not a matter of getting close in style -- if it were that easy, there's never be surety of authenticity. So, there must be something to forging things (documents, paintings, etc.) that's going above and beyond to foil the detection methods in place. We don't need to know what those details are because we can just leverage the forgery kit proficiency to tell us if a PC does a good enough job on those details to pass off a fake.

A few things.

1) I'm not caring about the countermeasures and I see that as being a red herring. Yes, forging a document can cost someone millions of gold or thousands of lives. That is why creating a forgery is difficult. But, any possible measure has two possible things in game. A) It is something that as a painter or scribe they would know about. If every real military document misspells the the word Army to show it is real, then a scribe who ever had to work on a military document would know this. Or B) Every official document needs to be sealed with a magical wax seal that is kept in the desk of the Master Scribe in the capital. In which case, you need to use it without getting caught, because you can't just replicate it.

Unless we are going to say that Forgery kits give everyone a) magic or b) the ability to make and replicate any design AND you can't do that with any other skill.

And things like again, things like aging paint or aging paper are things that people with those tools would know how to do. I have a friend who is an amateur woodworker. He knows how to quickly age wood, because he wants to make tables and desks that look antique without waiting a few decades for it to happen naturally. I could probably call up a Professor of the visual arts at a college, and ask them how to age paint to look older, and they can likely tell me.

Which is what leads into this

This is a squirrel argument. That water vehicles can be pointed at as applying to a broad category of water vehicles may or may not be a compelling argument, but it doesn't have much to do with forgery kits.

The point isn't to look at forgery kits, it is to look at Painter's Tools, of Blacksmithing tools, of Calligrapher's Supplies.

If Water Vehicles proficiency covers any floating boat shaped object, and dozens of sailing techniques, then why can't painter's tools cover knowing how to age paint? Why can't a blacksmith put a design on a rod of iron that matches the seal made of gold? Why can a jeweler not create a ring engraved with a message that looks like identical to one created by another jeweler a decade ago?

Why does it take a different proficiency to do the same thing that someone else did with the original tool?

Should it be a high Dc? Yes
Should it require special materials? Yes
Should it be difficult? Yes

Should it require an entirely different proficiency that has nothing to do with the tool that makes the object you are copying? No, why should it?

Personally, I like having a distinction between the kits if only because something called a "forgery kit" just sounds illicit. It's considered contraband, and those in possession of one are considered criminals-- just like thieves' tools.

It's not RAW, but I like to think a forgery kit contains a few high-end and ordinary doc supplies (paper, quills, ink, sealing wax, erasers, tracing paper, etc), as well as a selection of forms, letterhead, stamps, ID blanks, foil seals, unused ticket books, blank bank note, etc, swiped from official sources. It might even include some sort of fantastical configurable embossing tool, paper-aging solutions, jewelers' loup, and so forth. In addition to the basic writing &/or art skills needed, the proficiency mostly implies maintaining a working local knowledge of the jargon, codes, forms, etc, of the trades & offices being mimicked; as well as keeping the kit stocked with whatever basic docs might come in handy wherever the forger is at the time (and surreptitiously disposing of the unused illegal materials). Of course, this could mean a "forgery kit" is just "calligraphy supplies + illegal docs".

The bolded is the part I'm saying.

Sure, have a separate set of items, but the skills, the knowledge, the jargon? That makes sense to combine with the proper skill, or it is specialized knowledge that you just wouldn't know.

For example, I would never allow someone with a forgery kit to make a perfect fake die for embossing coins (not that it would actually matter in DnD). Because those dies are a heavily guarded state secrets. Without the proper background, you just don't know that.

If they wanted to, say, use their blacksmith tools and try and copy a coin that they have, I might let them make the attempt. They know metal, they know how to form metal, but it still will likely not be a perfect copy, because that requires them to get the die, and copy that. And since it is made of metal, a blacksmith can do that, but a forgery kit with paper and ink is useless for that.

 

[TaranTheWanderer]

So, this goes back to my dislike of tools-as-proficiency. Just make it a skill and if you don't have the tools, you can't do it. I think the Performance/or deceit combined with -> insert appropriate sub-genre (like calligraphy or painting) -> combined with the proper character background works better. That being said, it's not the way it works so I'd allow anyone with appropriate Tool to do a forgery, given the appropriate knowledge and character background.

If you want to forge a painting using Painter's Tools, go for it. If you have the appropriate knowledge History or Performance, you might be able to pull it off without having a copy since you've can say that you've studied their art. Having an appropriate background also helps.

If you want to make a fake Royal Invitation, you can do it with Calligraphy. Finding a Royal Seal to forge would be its own quest, whether or not you are using a Forgery Kit or a Calligraphy Kit.

 

[Guest 6801328]

Finding a Royal Seal to forge would be its own quest, whether or not you are using a Forgery Kit or a Calligraphy Kit.

And of course to forge the royal seal, you might have to forge one first. Which would requiring blacksmithing.

(Yeah, yeah, yeah....it would be cast, not forged. Just making word plays.)