Unearthed Arcana Why UA Psionics are never going to work in 5e.

[Maxperson]

I've never thought of it working that way. I've always assumed you had to have some talent for it. Similar to math, some people get it and some do not. You can just teach the world to learn linear algebra.

I always treated it as being born with the talent for it or not. If not, no amount of teaching will help you. If it's learnable by anyone, you end up like Eberron with low level casters being everywhere.

 

[Ovinomancer]

Huge myth.

More accurate to say, "The truly awful way we teach math in school works for some people, and not for other people."

Oh, no, you can take highly motivated and intelligent people with great teachers and they can still bounce off linear algebra. Seen it.

 

[Ovinomancer]

I'm okay with discussing my point about magic and psionics, but I'm not trying to have the design discussion that you are apparently zeroed in on to the exclusion of all else. Sometimes people want to talk about things related to psionics other than design and not everything psionics related is about design. Normally you are far better at picking up the fine point, but here you just lost it entirely.

I guess, then, I'm completely missing this fine point. When you're talking about how a concept would go into a game, it's all design discussion. I talked about two things in my first response to you -- first, that psionics being more mysterious or wonderous than magic, which you see as more like science in game, is a design point, but one that doesn't work in the design space of how classes are available. This is because this is a setting or world concept, not a class selection concept. It doesn't matter how special you think psionics should be in general, because players will always be able to select the class for their players -- it's not even a consideration possible within the character selection design space. I'd further say that the impression that magic is more sciency is more due to viewing it from the player side, where a player can always have a character with the spark or talent or whatever to be a wizard/sorcerer/bard. This is also be true for psionists.

So, then, can it be baked into the class -- ie, can the mechanics make it feel that way? And, that was the second part of that response -- throwing out some rough design concepts that let psionics function in a way that isn't just another full caster but actually does thing differently.

You didn't address any of those points, you just insisted that you don't want to talk about design. Which is confusing, because if you are talking about how psionics functions in game, that's a design input -- it's not a separate topic, it's a concurrent one. Instead, you just shut down any discussion by refusing to engage at all. Your right, and I'm perfectly happy to let you have it -- it's cool. But, if you say that you want to talk about how psionics works in the game world, you're talking about design. This is fundamentally obvious to me, so if you have a different take on it, it would be nice to hear it elicited rather than just telling me I missed the point without explaining it.

 

[Umbran]

Star Wars and some flavors of Space Opera are tricky because they straddle the line in some ways. I'd still call Star Wars sci-fi if someone asked, but it lives just across the border from fantasy land.

The term you probably want is "Science Fantasy":

"Science fantasy is a mixed genre within the umbrella of speculative fiction which simultaneously draws upon or combines tropes and elements from both science fiction and fantasy. In a science-fiction story, the world is presented as being scientifically possible, while a science-fantasy world contains elements which violate the scientific laws of the real world. Nevertheless, the world of science fantasy is logical and often is supplied with science-like explanations of these violations."

Sure, Star Wars happens in "space". There are things that look like rocket engines. But goodness, there's space wizards with laser swords, for cyin' out loud!. There's not a lick of actual science in that thing. Someone saying "midichlorians" does not make it straight sci-fi.

Genre definitions are usually an instant argument, just add internet.

In large part because the internet is generally incapable of embracing the power of "and".

 

[Guest 6801328]

Oh, no, you can take highly motivated and intelligent people with great teachers and they can still bounce off linear algebra. Seen it.

Never mind, deleted. Huge pointless digression, even if it's near and dear to my heart. Don't get me started on this, the game theory of voting systems, or bladesmithing.

 

[Guest 6801328]

In large part because the internet is generally incapable of embracing the power of "and".

That's just factually wrong. The feebleness of "and" pales next to the shining power of "or".

 

[Chaosmancer]

I think one would have wandered in at least once over multiple generations of time. It says no spellcasters, so we are not talking just Wizards here. We're talking Wizards, Warlocks, Bards, Clerics, Druids, Paladins, Eldritch Knights, Rangers, Arcane Tricksters and Sorcerers. You think that none of those would hit a village at some point within 60 or more years?

And now we shift from "wizards" to "anyone who can cast any magic"

But, I'll move with the goalposts, because again, sure. Small towns with nothing to their name and no reason for the average person to go there probably don't see a lot of extraordinary people.

And, even if they did, how is the town supposed to know that the gruff mercenary that stopped in town two decades ago was a Ranger, if they never did any magic?

You make this out to be some sort of impossibility, but a remote village that is small enough might not see anyone from outside the village more than once a year. This isn't that unreasonable.

No matter how you slice it, the number of wizards would steadily increase. There would also be wizard schools and colleges to teach children of non-wizards. Nobles would flock there, as would merchants and merchants' kids. Many of them would teach their kids privately.

Sure, but "increasing steadily" isn't the same as "everyone will know magic"

Here, let's use doctors as an example. Doctors are important people, with a skill that is hard to learn, and that you would likely try and teach your kids.

Google tells me that the first recorded "physician" in history is Hesy-Ra from Egypt in the 27th century BCE. Hippocrates created the Hippocratic Oath (a cornerstone of medicine) around 300 BCE, approximating 2,400 years later.

And 2,300 years after that we get the 20th century. Found a data site that tells me in 2013 globally we had 1.5 doctors per 1,000 people.

Let us ignore reality and say that Hesy-Ra is our first, and not just our first recorded. 1 doctor in the year -2,700. And over 5,100 years later we have approximately 4.8 million doctors. Which is a lot, but is only .066% of the population of the world, up from .0000017% with Hesy-Ra.

Yes, knowledge will grow and more people will learn the skills and that will grow along population, but it is a massively difficult process and doesn't start making a noticeable impact for millennia.

 

[Maxperson]

And now we shift from "wizards" to "anyone who can cast any magic"

Nope. It was a shift back. I initially said spellcaster, not Wizard, because that was the quote in the DMG.

Small towns with nothing to their name and no reason for the average person to go there probably don't see a lot of extraordinary people.

Bards literally go out of their way to go to these small towns to acquire stories and songs. Rangers and Druids live in the outskirts and would also go to these villages.

And, even if they did, how is the town supposed to know that the gruff mercenary that stopped in town two decades ago was a Ranger, if they never did any magic?

Bards show off their magic and abilities and go out of their way to hit up these places.

Sure, but "increasing steadily" isn't the same as "everyone will know magic"

The vast majority of settings have had magic and wizards for thousands to tens of thousands of years. By the time the PCs are adventuring, the setting would be like Eberron.

And 2,300 years after that we get the 20th century. Found a data site that tells me in 2013 globally we had 1.5 doctors per 1,000 people.

Again, these professions you are bringing up are not like Wizards and wouldn't generate the same level of interest. False Equivalences are false.

 

[Guest 6801328]

I'll just say...

(wait, I want to make sure I'm not near anything that might attract lighting)

...that Max has a point here. Or, at least, there is a point that can be extracted from Max's posts.

If you want a fantasy world in which wizards are rare and mysterious, you need some mechanism to explain why that would be true. If magic is as "easy" as 5e makes it appear to be, you would have a steadily increasing numbers of Wizards. After all, as @Tony Vargas would happily tell you, Magic > All in 5e. And even if not, it's awfully useful and powerful.

You could, for example, simply rule (as a DM) that only some people have the magical spark. Players get to have that spark if they want it, so no random roll is required, but part of the fictional setting is that not everybody has it. But that's not part of the actual rules anywhere.

Or you might rule that Wizards are, effectively, a guild, and maintain strict control over their trade "secrets". This is quite reasonable and feasible, in my mind. Not so different from the way certain swords, produced not by sole individuals but by secretive "guilds" (in deed if not in name) were so highly prized over the centuries. Whether Uthbert, Damascus, Toledo, or whatever, the smiths who made these blades taught their apprentices how to do it, but as a group maintained an iron grip on the trade secrets. (As an aside, it blows my mind that they even figured this stuff out, and how to replicate it, with zero understanding of the actual metallurgy and chemistry.). Wizards might do the same thing.

Or maybe it's just that teaching magic sucks up a tremendous amount of time. The Wizards aren't "secretive" so much as just really uninterested in spending 10,000 hours training somebody.

Whatever it is, if your world does not have an explanation for why magic is rare, I think Max is right in that you're either going to have more and more and more wizards (and maybe bards and clerics and what-not) or you're going to just have to live with an incongruity in your game world, similar to how it makes no sense that you can't easily and cheaply buy copying privileges to fill up your spell book, since there's no real "cost" to letting somebody copy your spells.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Bards show off their magic and abilities and go out of their way to hit up these places.

Could you get a quote that tells us all bards would show off their magic?

The vast majority of settings have had magic and wizards for thousands to tens of thousands of years. By the time the PCs are adventuring, the setting would be like Eberron.

Really? How soon after the invention of magic are PCs adventuring? I certainly haven't seen that anywhere in any book I've ever read.

I mean, after all, I could be running an adventure in Faerun during the time of the creator races, nothing really stops me from doing so after all.

And yes, in a certain point in a world's history, it would look like Eberron with magic being quite broadly common. At a certain point they would have space ships and AIs and be in our future too. Time works like that.

Again, these professions you are bringing up are not like Wizards and wouldn't generate the same level of interest. False Equivalences are false.

There is nothing like magic in the real world Max. That is why it is the thing we dream about.

With this position then everything we can ever say about Magic is impossible to equivalate to anything. If you want to turtle up behind that then I'm done talking, because you can just say "nuh-uh, magic isn't like that" to literally anything I say.

I'll just say...

(wait, I want to make sure I'm not near anything that might attract lighting)

...that Max has a point here. Or, at least, there is a point that can be extracted from Max's posts.

If you want a fantasy world in which wizards are rare and mysterious, you need some mechanism to explain why that would be true. If magic is as "easy" as 5e makes it appear to be, you would have a steadily increasing numbers of Wizards. After all, as @Tony Vargas would happily tell you, Magic > All in 5e. And even if not, it's awfully useful and powerful.

See, but you don't actually need anything about magic for that to be the case.

Heck, let us say magic is as easy as teaching algebra. Then, a hundred years ago, a Demon Horde appeared and started killing anyone who knew magic and dragging their souls to the Abyss.

How many magic-users are in the setting at the start of your adventure a hundred years later?

Or, you can just say that magic is hard to learn and expensive. If it costs a million dollars to even attempt to learn from a mage, would you be able to afford it right now? A college education is actually out of the reach of most people in the country, that is why loan programs exist, because the majority of people who go to college can't actually afford it. Take away the loans, and have each wizard only take ona few apprentices, and boom, wizards are rare again, with no need for anything else.

Or you might rule that Wizards are, effectively, a guild, and maintain strict control over their trade "secrets". This is quite reasonable and feasible, in my mind. Not so different from the way certain swords, produced not by sole individuals but by secretive "guilds" (in deed if not in name) were so highly prized over the centuries. Whether Uthbert, Damascus, Toledo, or whatever, the smiths who made these blades taught their apprentices how to do it, but as a group maintained an iron grip on the trade secrets. (As an aside, it blows my mind that they even figured this stuff out, and how to replicate it, with zero understanding of the actual metallurgy and chemistry.). Wizards might do the same thing.

Or maybe it's just that teaching magic sucks up a tremendous amount of time. The Wizards aren't "secretive" so much as just really uninterested in spending 10,000 hours training somebody.

According to Max's arguments, these would both present the same problem,

Because those secret guilds would teach their families magic, and then those kids would teach their kids, and then everyone will know magic.

And the time doesn't matter, because in Max's example, everyone wants to learn magic and it doesn't matter how long it will take because magic is powerful and everyone wants it.

Whatever it is, if your world does not have an explanation for why magic is rare, I think Max is right in that you're either going to have more and more and more wizards (and maybe bards and clerics and what-not) or you're going to just have to live with an incongruity in your game world, similar to how it makes no sense that you can't easily and cheaply buy copying privileges to fill up your spell book, since there's no real "cost" to letting somebody copy your spells.

See, Max's point (as it has been presented to me) is that the only explanation for magic being rare that works is that you have to be born magical. If it can be taught, then everyone will learn it and use it by the time the adventure starts.

That is what I'm trying to argue against.