D&D 5E The God Sorlock

[borg286]

Your Fighter sucks. He should have precise strike (ensuring he lands his GWM attacks) and tripping strike (for extra damage when he does land his hits, and advantage for the rest of his attacks that round due to Prone).

Also; slight problem with a Quicken build. While it works OK in really short adventuring days (1-2 encounters) it tends to suck on standard (6ish) or longer adventuring days.

Like... at 5th level (Sorc 3/ Lock 2), you have 3 SP. Thats 1 quickened spell per encounter (and you then need to blow a bonus action and one of your 2 second level spell slots to get those SP back to do it again).

Even if you somehow only managed to use 1 x 1st level slot for Hex (and maintained it all day long) you're left with 3 x 1st level slots, and 2 x 2nds (7 extra SP), not including your recharging Warlock slots (and even including them, that's 2 extra SP based on 2 short rests that day, considering you'll need to re-establish Hex after each short rest due to the 1 hour duration).

So at 5th level, you can quicken 5 (6 with 2 short rests) times (in an entire adventuring day (and realistically no more than 1/ encounter). That number drops with each spell you cast (like Shield), or each time you flub a concentration save and need to re-establish Hex.

There are also action economy issues. You'll be using a Bonus action to spam Hex onto your target, so no quickening that round. If you ALSO want to Hexblades curse, that's another Bonus action the following round (so again, no Quickening that round).

By Round 3 you can finally Quicken your (Hex+Curse) Eldritch blasts, but most combat are either over by then or nearly so.

At late levels (11th plus) you can reliably do this for the entire day for great DPR that lasts the entire adventuring day in most cases. But that DPR comes at the expense of your other spells, and you're still left with action economy issues.

You have a fair argument that my 5th and 6th level plan for a round expends the daily resources to be that competitive.
I agree that casting Hex a second time greatly reduces the damage output. This is why I put so much focus on getting a decent AC, Constitution saving throws, Magical Resistance, and showcased it with a ranged attack. If I do get damaged with so few points to spend, there is little point getting hex back up for the few remaining rounds. For a fighter, he has very little to lose each round that would affect the next round other than being immobilized.

This build does have a reliance on good planning for how many encounters you estimate the day will last. However the analysis of Damage per Spell Point and Font of Magic enables you to pace yourself. The Fighter will easily out damage me the longer the day lasts. My quote of being better than the fighter should hold up past level 7 however as we have enough spell points to quicken almost every round.

Regarding the warm up time, most nova builds have this problem, which is why this build puts so much focus on buffing your allies. Those concentration spells are a great use of your first action. The second round of action is merely missing the hexblade's curse. At low levels this doesn't add very much, but I'm still doing quite a bit of damage. There is always Twin Command which trades raw power for hard control and action denial, which doesn't have a DPR to compare against.

Last regarding the Fighter build, let's say they go with Precise Strike and Trip. Given that the foe can simply get back up, he'd have to do this every round. The first attack is made at 60%, then we branch. Either he hit or didn't. Hits and our subsequent single attack and Attack action get advantage. If he doesn't does he spend another superiority dice to try again? How often will you riposte in an encounter? For my "80% better than a fighter" quote I was using this sheet made by another person. You'll need to head down to the "Fighter BM GWM GWF" section to see how they estimated the best strategy for maximizing expected damage.
I'll grant that the comparison isn't fair as these calculations assume the fighter is doing a reasonable balance between maneuvers, while my Sorlock assumes 2 targets I can touch and I add their damage equally.

Please do break down what a better fighter would do, using the same AC and HP as I used above. I'll gladly replace it. I'm going to block the human fighter however as an extra feat is not representative of a standard striker baseline.

 

[borg286]

For me it is missing crucial information, no background, no personality trait, no ideal, no Bond and no flaw. Seem empty shell character for me.

Fair point. I touched on the Yuan-ti race/mindset at the end, but didn't have enough time last night to get this extra stuff. I'll add a section for the flesh.

 

[Krachek]

Fair point. I touched on the Yuan-ti race/mindset at the end, but didn't have enough time last night to get this extra stuff. I'll add a section for the flesh.

Your work prove that the phb + 1 rule for character building is a wise rule.
and I would perfectly agree with a DM that ban the MC for the triumvera paladin, warlock, sorcerer.

 

[borg286]

Fair point. I touched on the Yuan-ti race/mindset at the end, but didn't have enough time last night to get this extra stuff. I'll add a section for the flesh.

Added background. I'd be happy to hear your feedback.
I agree that the warlock dip messes with the vancian casting style of the other classes. Cha casting ability has too much power in it.

 

[Krachek]

Added background. I'd be happy to hear your feedback.
I agree that the warlock dip messes with the vancian casting style of the other classes. Cha casting ability has too much power in it.

There is few path for char op in 5ed. They are well know by now and DM should not be surprised so much.
But more important char op is getting less and less trending compare to character story.

 

[Flamestrike]

You have a fair argument that my 5th and 6th level plan for a round expends the daily resources to be that competitive.
I agree that casting Hex a second time greatly reduces the damage output. This is why I put so much focus on getting a decent AC, Constitution saving throws, Magical Resistance, and showcased it with a ranged attack. If I do get damaged with so few points to spend, there is little point getting hex back up for the few remaining rounds. For a fighter, he has very little to lose each round that would affect the next round other than being immobilized.

This build does have a reliance on good planning for how many encounters you estimate the day will last. However the analysis of Damage per Spell Point and Font of Magic enables you to pace yourself. The Fighter will easily out damage me the longer the day lasts. My quote of being better than the fighter should hold up past level 7 however as we have enough spell points to quicken almost every round.

Regarding the warm up time, most nova builds have this problem, which is why this build puts so much focus on buffing your allies. Those concentration spells are a great use of your first action. The second round of action is merely missing the hexblade's curse. At low levels this doesn't add very much, but I'm still doing quite a bit of damage. There is always Twin Command which trades raw power for hard control and action denial, which doesn't have a DPR to compare against.

Last regarding the Fighter build, let's say they go with Precise Strike and Trip. Given that the foe can simply get back up, he'd have to do this every round. The first attack is made at 60%, then we branch. Either he hit or didn't. Hits and our subsequent single attack and Attack action get advantage. If he doesn't does he spend another superiority dice to try again? How often will you riposte in an encounter? For my "80% better than a fighter" quote I was using this sheet made by another person. You'll need to head down to the "Fighter BM GWM GWF" section to see how they estimated the best strategy for maximizing expected damage.
I'll grant that the comparison isn't fair as these calculations assume the fighter is doing a reasonable balance between maneuvers, while my Sorlock assumes 2 targets I can touch and I add their damage equally.

Please do break down what a better fighter would do, using the same AC and HP as I used above. I'll gladly replace it. I'm going to block the human fighter however as an extra feat is not representative of a standard striker baseline.

The Fighter (5) swings using GWM. He has 2 attacks (and then 2 more if using Action surge, and a 5th if any of these attacks drop a creature to 0 HP, or Crit).

IF attack 1 hits, he uses Pushing Strike, doing extra damage and also trying to knock the creature Prone (so his remaining attacks this turn have advantage). If it misses, he uses Precise strike so it hits. He then attacks 1-4 more times on Turn 1 (depending on Action surge, and reducing a creature to 0 HP or critting).

Presuming the DMG median of 2-3 short rests per adventuring day, he can do this 3-4 times per long rest.

When it come to the Sorclock's DPR he needs to expend daily resources to get it up and running (long rest resources mainly, although he does have short rest based spell slots) AND he also has a lot of problems with the action economy requiring a bonus action to:

1) Lay on Hex
2) Lay on Hexblades curse
3) Create more SP to Twin a cantrip (presuming 2 levels of Warlock in the first 5 levels, he can Twin once per encounter at levels 2-5, twice at 6-7, 3 times at 8-9 etc)

Honestly, by the time your target is Hexed AND Cursed, your party have had 2-3 rounds depending on initiative order of pummelling the target themselves (meaning it's likely dead already), and even then you get to blast the once, before having to waste another Bonus action to transfer Hex (and maybe another one to create more SP for another Quicken.

It looks OK in a whiteroom, but in an actual encounter (among many in an adventuring day), it's situational at best.

 

[jgsugden]

You spend a lot of focus on damage for being a Treatmonk style "God" class.

What I find myself constantly explaining is that “being a god” doesn’t mean godlike power. I chose the name based on Greek Myths, where a god would get some hapless mortal to do their dirty work, merely interfering by magic to ensure that the hero always had the advantage. This is what a god wizard is, a wizard who lets the rest of the party have the glory, but subtly ensures through Battlefield Control, Buffing and Debuffing that the party always achieves victory.

You're more of a jack of all trades.

 

[borg286]

The Fighter (5) swings using GWM. He has 2 attacks (and then 2 more if using Action surge, and a 5th if any of these attacks drop a creature to 0 HP, or Crit).

IF attack 1 hits, he uses Pushing Strike, doing extra damage and also trying to knock the creature Prone (so his remaining attacks this turn have advantage). If it misses, he uses Precise strike so it hits. He then attacks 1-4 more times on Turn 1 (depending on Action surge, and reducing a creature to 0 HP or critting).

Presuming the DMG median of 2-3 short rests per adventuring day, he can do this 3-4 times per long rest.

When it come to the Sorclock's DPR he needs to expend daily resources to get it up and running (long rest resources mainly, although he does have short rest based spell slots) AND he also has a lot of problems with the action economy requiring a bonus action to:

1) Lay on Hex
2) Lay on Hexblades curse
3) Create more SP to Twin a cantrip (presuming 2 levels of Warlock in the first 5 levels, he can Twin once per encounter at levels 2-5, twice at 6-7, 3 times at 8-9 etc)

Honestly, by the time your target is Hexed AND Cursed, your party have had 2-3 rounds depending on initiative order of pummelling the target themselves (meaning it's likely dead already), and even then you get to blast the once, before having to waste another Bonus action to transfer Hex (and maybe another one to create more SP for another Quicken.

It looks OK in a whiteroom, but in an actual encounter (among many in an adventuring day), it's situational at best.

Thank you for showing how Pushing strike, Precise strike and action surge could be used. But I was asking you to go through the math and show me that the expected damage would be better than the Riposte/Parry strategy I used. I don't think the Riposte/Parry fighter "sucks" compared with your Precise/Pushing version. It might be 0.05 KPR off, but not enough to make the ratio of Sorlock KPR / Fighter KPR noticably different at level 5.

Your argument about 2-3 encounters per day is valid. If I knew there would be 3 encounters that day I'd spread out my damage with Quicken Eldritch Blast.

Your scenario you painted, 2-3 rounds in and I finally have all my buffs up before I start attacking is not what I outlined in the level sections. I show how much damage I frontload. While it isn't as good as the figher's Action Surge, the average over 4 rounds is respectable and often superior. Never do I end up spending a minor action to convert my spells to points. I assume one does this after defeating the foe in preparation for the next battle. The tricky part is picking the best way to use one's minor and main actions to frontload as much damage as possible. Note that I Hex and then use Twin Inflict Wounds prior to level 5. She is not just warming up while the party does the heavy lifting. She is right up there with them on round 1 benefiting from Hex. The curse is simply nice and squoze in there so the Quicken EB + EB at level 5 can use it later on.

 

[borg286]

You spend a lot of focus on damage for being a Treatmonk style "God" class. You're more of a jack of all trades.

As I've listened to his Youtube videos he mentions that the Dodge action is sometimes the best thing you can do. Why? Because his concentrated spells are so important to keep up and damage is not a goal. I say that you can have your cake and eat it too. I saw the Quickened Eldritch Blast + Eldritch Blast + Agonizing Blast as getting most of the way to what a party needs of a striker, and that the Darkness trope has diminishing returns for the problems it caused the party. What could be had if we dropped the Darkness and instead focused on the party, could we get even higher KPR by enabling them, akin to the God class? Yes and more.

Regarding the jack of all trades, Normally they are only 1/2 as good as a properly built Healer/Defender/Striker... My goal is to be somewhere in the 75% to 100% range. Where do you feel I fall short of this mark? The areas I admit are less than adequate are "choosing between Defender and Striker", and full utility of a caster class (Dimension Door, Teleport, Scrying, Familiar scout). I do feel the battlefield control role is properly filled out however.

 

[Blue]

My concern is that at the lower levels this will run out of juice (slots and SP) well before the end of the adventuring day. You'll still have a single EB + AB per round, but that will bring your average damage well down.

If a DM does the recommended 6-8 encounters per day, and you're keeping a good concentration spell and enough SP to twin it (which might involve breaking down some slots) for the high end of encounters, that doesn't leave a lot else per encounter. Take out some additional slots for reaction like Shield, and any utility outside of combat, and the build does not seem to be able to fuel it's potential until Tier 3 (maybe) or 4.

To be able to throw out these huge numbers, we're looking at what, say 8 spells for a 3-4 round combat plus breaking down say 2-4 more spells for SP after combat to fuel the next encounter? The KPR is showing a Action casting and a Bonus Action casting, plus there will be reactive needs like Shield.

I think this is a very efficient nova machine, but it for the most part boasts impressive damage by burning through resources quicker. Even a base EB + quickened EB round will take breaking down a 2nd level slot to replenish those spell points. If you have a DM who throws 2-3 encounters a day it can be better than even the other casters who bask in that situation because it can use resources quicker. But while it's a firehose compared to other casters garden hose, they both have the same size water tank at the end.