D&D and the rising pandemic

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

It's not about money even though those in power are driving their decisions about it.

The people in charge are basing their decisions on money, which makes it the focus.

At the most basic level food still has to be produced and essentials have to be shipped.

Ideally everyone grabs 60000 calories and stays at home for a month.

Ideally, yes, that's what happens, but we do need to produce food and everything else that is 100% necassary for survival. During the US shutdown, tobacco, vape, and marijuana stores stayed open. They're not necessary.

There's also an element of classism at play. Why should we suffer while the middle class and better hides?

Yes, there is an element of that at play, especially when the government is trying to force the working class to work in a dangerous environment without healthcare, hazard pay, and enforceable mask rules.

Most jobs can't be done from home. Cabin fever is a thing.

Most jobs can't be done from home, but a lot of them are unnecessary or are capable of doing work from home. (Also, cabin fever is troublesome, but will probably not kill people, which opening up will definitely.)

 

[Umbran]

So, folks, let us realize - we here will not solve any of these issues. We here, will not even have any impact on these issues.

Feel free to take your thoughts to your elected representatives. But don't make an argument of it here.

 

[Hussar]

It's called reality.

We have a well run country and lockdown lasted 7 weeks roughly.

We couldn't have kept it up much longer. A few weeks perhaps.

By June I expect most places reopening to some extent regardless.

We ran out of a few basics. Very light compared to other parts of the world. And we've "defeated" Covid.

In hindsight assuming a perfect response full lockdown mid February, with something like what we did.

But no one was aware in mid February to that extent.

OTOH, @Zardnaar, we never locked down, at least not to the degree you're talking about, have a population density several times higher than New Zealand, and a constant stream of travel to and from China on a daily basis. Yet, our numbers aren't much different than yours. Our total deaths was less than a thousand, and we have a population, what, 8 times the size of yours in a geographical area that's pretty similar. New Zealand and Japan are close in area size.

So, this whole argument of "WE MUST LOCKDOWN" doesn't really fly. It's one solution, but, not the only one. Heck, Japan's freaking out because we lost 3000 jobs this year. Compared to other countries, we've come through this relatively unscathed. And, let's not forget China as well. While they locked down Wuhan, the rest of the country didn't lock down at all. My student's son lives in Shanghai and they didn't really even notice any difference day to day. To the point where her son sent HER masks from China.

My point being, there are other methods. Chasing clusters, for one, seemed to work for us pretty well.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

So, this whole argument of "WE MUST LOCKDOWN" doesn't really fly.

It flies when we don't have sufficient tracking, testing, or lockdown of the people who could have or should have.

 

[Umbran]

My point being, there are other methods. Chasing clusters, for one, seemed to work for us pretty well.

Just to note - chasing clusters works when the pattern still has discernible clusters. There's a point at which community spread puts too much noise out to find the signal of clusters, if you will. It is a strategy for early in the outbreak, or while the outbreak is generally small. When you have 15,000 dead in one city, it is too late to chase clusters there.

 

[Zardnaar]

OTOH, @Zardnaar, we never locked down, at least not to the degree you're talking about, have a population density several times higher than New Zealand, and a constant stream of travel to and from China on a daily basis. Yet, our numbers aren't much different than yours. Our total deaths was less than a thousand, and we have a population, what, 8 times the size of yours in a geographical area that's pretty similar. New Zealand and Japan are close in area size.

So, this whole argument of "WE MUST LOCKDOWN" doesn't really fly. It's one solution, but, not the only one. Heck, Japan's freaking out because we lost 3000 jobs this year. Compared to other countries, we've come through this relatively unscathed. And, let's not forget China as well. While they locked down Wuhan, the rest of the country didn't lock down at all. My student's son lives in Shanghai and they didn't really even notice any difference day to day. To the point where her son sent HER masks from China.

My point being, there are other methods. Chasing clusters, for one, seemed to work for us pretty well.

Yeah the one size fits all approach isn't required. It's actively causing problems in other parts of the world.

It's an option for reasonably rich western type countries.

In USAs case I would have locked it down NZ style with an element of martial law. A bit more ruthless on the borders though. USA has an awesome military use it to seal the borders. Drones, soldiers, helicopters the lot.

That would disappoint a lot of people though. My bailout would look different to both sides as well but I would happily steal ideas from both.

This is why I can't be a politician. Ruthless pragmatist. This is what needs to be done get it done.

People gonna die regardless go with the result that kills less people. Emergency powers for 3 months. Been done before in the US.

Once containment fails you may as well go full lockdown or herd immunity pick one.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

Once containment fails you may as well go full lockdown or herd immunity pick one.

Herd immunity only applies when we have vaccines and as many people vaccinated as possible. Sweden tried herd immunity and we can already see how that turned out.

Also, the vaccine won't help us get herd immunity if enough people don't take it.

 

[Zardnaar]

Herd immunity only applies when we have vaccines and as many people vaccinated as possible. Sweden tried herd immunity and we can already see how that turned out.

Also, the vaccine won't help us get herd immunity if enough people don't take it.

I'll rephrase herd immunity to survival of the fittest.

Multiply Covid deaths by 10 and it's still a fraction of how many people are going to starve to death.

Take some precautions obviously but it's getting to the point things are going to reopen regardless.

IDK if a 3 month total lockdown is viable now.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

Yes, survival of all the people who aren't old or sick. Sounds really nice when you think about it. (I am saying this in the most sarcastic voice possible)

We can make programs to keep people from starving to death in America.

 

[Zardnaar]

Yes, survival of all the people who aren't old or sick. Sounds really nice when you think about it. (I am saying this in the most sarcastic voice possible)

We can make programs to keep people from starving to death in America.

It's other countries that will starve but America is a major food exporter.

If USA locked down now that's another 3 months. I don't think a 5 month lockdown is viable.

Here our essentials were basically food, freight, pharmacy, and supermarkets. They closed almost everything.

Someone has to do those type of jobs even if you locked down correctly.

Reality right now is you're going to have to reopen come June regardless. Just in time for wave 2.

America's gonna have food shortages already from what I've been reading.