D&D 5E What Level 20 Class Would Win?

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

Distance between them?

I'd say probably 30 feet is the fairest to melee characters. 60 feet at the most for a melee fight.

 

[FarBeyondC]

There's no prep.

So, essentially, you are designing characters to go into combat, but they don't actually exist beforehand. You get to choose all your spells, have all your class features, and so on, but you don't get any prep time.

Well, that makes the post about the pr wizard's standard setup completely pointless to post.

Doesn't really change my vote, though Bard's more even with Wizard in my mind in a no-prep scenario.

 

[Benjamin Olson]

There's no prep.

So, essentially, you are designing characters to go into combat, but they don't actually exist beforehand. You get to choose all your spells, have all your class features, and so on, but you don't get any prep time.

So these are purpose build dueling builds? Are prepared spellcasters picking spells before learning their opponent (I think a fair amount of the love for wizards was based on that premise)? Would no prep exclude having a familiar, simulacrum, etc.?

I might have to change my vote from Wizard to Lore Bard.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

So these are purpose build dueling builds? Are prepared spellcasters picking spells before learning their opponent (I think a fair amount of the love for wizards was based on that premise)?

No, they know who they're fighting, and all their abilities.

Essentially, this is my way of thinking about it. If you give prep time, everyone gets prep time. This negatively impacts martial characters, as prep doesn't help them much. It also makes it so a sorcerer can cast simulacrum infinite times with twinned spell, and then has an army of copies of themselves, while the necromancer wizard comes in with an army of 1000 undead that he has to control for one battle.

Prep time can get rid of a bit of power, but it makes things simpler, and I think it makes it more fair.

 

[Benjamin Olson]

Essentially, this is my way of thinking about it. If you give prep time, everyone gets prep time. This negatively impacts martial characters, as prep doesn't help them much. It also makes it so a sorcerer can cast simulacrum infinite times with twinned spell, and then has an army of copies of themselves, while the necromancer wizard comes in with an army of 1000 undead that he has to control for one battle.

Cool. I hated this Simulacrum nonsense which just made it a question of what person and their clone could defeat a lone enemy.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

Cool. I hated this Simulacrum nonsense which just made it a question of what person and their clone could defeat a lone enemy.

Yes, it also gets rid of the issue of the Clone spell, and so on.

You can cast Simulacrum, with Wish (or if you somehow get the materials and time to cast it inside the arena), but you don't enter the battle with it.

 

[ClaytonCross]

I think there is an argument for Battlesmith Artificer who can achieve a static AC26 with class features and has buffs for higher including but not limited to +5 form shield and +2 for haste allowing for an AC easily higher than 30 where you half to get a natural twenty to hit them. Then the Steel defender can give the attacker disadvantage which greatly reduces the change of getting a natural twenty by requiring they get 2 natural twenties on the same roll. Add to that the Artificer can self heal and gets a +8 to all saves (from Soul of Artifice, infusion replicate magic item ring of protection and cloak of protection) They are more than capable with dealing with save spells. I believe they can out fight everything but the Moon druid pretty reliably. The moon druid just about can't dye but they arguably also can't kill the Battlesmsith Artificer ether so it becomes a very very very long endurance game but I give it to the artificer because the artificer will continually and consistently damage the druid so they do get the offensive advantage assuming the druid doesn't turn into bird and just fly away after realizing how painful this fight would be.

Edit: As a side not, the Artificer gets Constitution and Intelligence saving throughs. Your going to want max intelligence for weapon and spell attacks so your first two ASI go there. Then next 3 ASI I would put into Resilient Dex, Resilient Wisdom, and Resilient Charisma. With the +8 to all saves from class features, you now have a minimum of +12 to everything but strength. Intelligence save as high as +17 which has if I recall the most save or die spells the wisard is feared for.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

I think there is an argument for Battlesmith Artificer who can achieve a static AC26

AC is irrelevant for saving throw spells.

 

[Asisreo]

No, it isn't a big deal of course, but it does mean one day in 10 the Sorcerer doesn't have access to the spell. I wouldn't like 1 in 10 odds myself, but YMMV.

As to the DM fiat, it really isn't. I've already shown Wish can be used to Wish for 25000 worth of ruby dust (allowing 16 castings of Simulacrum). Also, if the DM doesn't have ruby dust in the game world, then they are sort of being a prick of a DM IMO. After all, it is one of the most common material components with a cost:

Continual Flame (ruby dust 50 gp)
Infernal Calling (Ruby worth 999 gp)
Forbiddance (powdered ruby worth 1000 gp)
Force Cage (ruby dust worth 1500 gp)
Simulacrum (powdered ruby worth 1500 gp)

All those spells require powdered ruby or ruby dust (probably not a difference). I'd be more than a little annoyed if my DM said I couldn't cast those spells ever.

EDIT: FYI, if there are no rubies period, that knocks a couple more spells out of the books.

They were a prick DM when they decided to have PvP just to stroke a wizard's ego.

The price for wishing Ruby Dust is steep, with a chance you won't be able to cast Wish again. If that happens, no matter what your simulacrum can upcast, they'll no longer be able to cast wish.

Either way, this conversation has insisted on favoring the wizard since it's beginning. The range is unoptimal for a melee fighter, the terrain provides no cover, the wizard is assumed to have everything they need.

A monk could probably survive the simulacrum barrage anyways. They're really good at avoiding damage and even magic missile becomes an unreliable spell if the monk goes invisible.

I also think it's a bit strange that portent wizard always gets a higher initiative consistently. Sure, one or two of them have a d20 portent roll to overcome most martial character's initiative. But if the enemy survives, they'll probably get rid of the other spellcasters easily. Couldn't a warlock/bard have an army of True Polymorphed objects?

Couldn't a sorcerer finger of death enemies to have very powerful zombies. Like Dracoliches and Beholder Zombies?

 

[ClaytonCross]

AC is irrelevant for saving throw spells.

Someone didn't read the whole post. lol.