D&D 5E WotC's Jeremy Crawford on D&D Races Going Forward

On Twitter, Jeremy Crawford discussed the treatment of orcs, Vistani, drow and others in D&D, and how WotC plans to treat the idea of 'race' in D&D going forward. In recent products (Eberron and Wildemount), the mandatory evil alignment was dropped from orcs, as was the Intelligence penalty.

@ThinkingDM Look at the treatment orcs received in Eberron and Exandria. Dropped the Intelligence debuff and the evil alignment, with a more acceptable narrative. It's a start, but there's a fair argument for gutting the entire race system.

The orcs of Eberron and Wildemount reflect where our hearts are and indicate where we’re heading.

@vorpaldicepress I hate to be "that guy", but what about Drow, Vistani, and the other troublesome races and cultures in Forgotten Realms (like the Gur, another Roma-inspired race)? Things don't change over night, but are these on the radar?

The drow, Vistani, and many other folk in the game are on our radar. The same spirit that motivated our portrayal of orcs in Eberron is animating our work on all these peoples.

@MileyMan1066 Good. These problems need to be addressed. The variant features UA could have a sequel that includes notes that could rectify some of the problems and help move 5e in a better direction.

Addressing these issues is vital to us. Eberron and Wildemount are the first of multiple books that will face these issues head on and will do so from multiple angles.

@mbriddell I'm happy to hear that you are taking a serious look at this. Do you feel that you can achieve this within the context of Forgotten Realms, given how establised that world's lore is, or would you need to establish a new setting to do this?

Thankfully, the core setting of D&D is the multiverse, with its multitude of worlds. We can tell so many different stories, with different perspectives, in each world. And when we return to a world like FR, stories can evolve. In short, even the older worlds can improve.

@SlyFlourish I could see gnolls being treated differently in other worlds, particularly when they’re a playable race. The idea that they’re spawned hyenas who fed on demon-touched rotten meat feels like they’re in a different class than drow, orcs, goblins and the like. Same with minotaurs.

Internally, we feel that the gnolls in the MM are mistyped. Given their story, they should be fiends, not humanoids. In contrast, the gnolls of Eberron are humanoids, a people with moral and cultural expansiveness.

@MikeyMan1066 I agree. Any creature with the Humanoid type should have the full capacity to be any alignmnet, i.e., they should have free will and souls. Gnolls... the way they are described, do not. Having them be minor demons would clear a lot of this up.

You just described our team's perspective exactly.

As a side-note, the term 'race' is starting to fall out of favor in tabletop RPGs (Pathfinder has "ancestry", and other games use terms like "heritage"); while he doesn't comment on that specifically, he doesn't use the word 'race' and instead refers to 'folks' and 'peoples'.

 

[Ash Mantle]

You're right. The style was in my face all this time and yet I never noticed or thought about it much or at all. I think my originally thought about the armour (at that time) was that the hobgoblin looks a little too martially for my liking. Grief! 0 for Perception.

On the other hand though, it is troubling that this sort of styling and depiction is used to depict what's ostensibly an evil race, and as noted above as militant conquerors. So, hopefully some measure of thorough even consideration can applied here as well

 

[pukunui]

On the other hand though, it is troubling that this sort of styling and depiction is used to depict what's ostensibly an evil race, and as noted above as militant conquerors. So, hopefully some measure of thorough even consideration can applied here as well

Maybe 6e will just be 5e but with a more inclusive makeover. I mean, if they're going to rework some things, they might as well go whole hog and run a fine tooth comb through everything they've done so far to date and replace all the problematic words and artwork. They could redo some of the few sexist bits of art (like the vampire spawn) while they're at it as well.

I'd buy that.

 

[Xenonnonex]

Imagine a game and setting were there is no heaven, no hell, no religion, no gods,
no war, no oppression, no political system, no money,
where all race are equal and live in peace helping each other,
what wonderful adventure we can have in such a game.

Okay. Great.

 

[Sadras]

They could redo some of the few sexist bits of art (like the vampire spawn) while they're at it as well.

Are we really going to persecute a trope?
What about the Solar?

 

[pukunui]

Are we really going to persecute a trope?
What about the Solar?

I highlighted the vampire spawn because women have spoken out about it being sexist in its pose and such. I haven’t come across anyone complaining about the solar.

 

[Sadras]

I highlighted the vampire spawn because women have spoken out about it being sexist in its pose and such.

I wonder if these same individuals complained about the placement of the incubus tail.
Grief!

EDIT: I'm all for gate-keeping these kinds of people from the hobby.

 

[Var]

I highlighted the vampire spawn because women have spoken out about it being sexist in its pose and such. I haven’t come across anyone complaining about the solar.

That's because of the same reason domestic violence against males isn't talked about and we're fine with people complaining about unrealistic body types for women but buff and lean male models are somehow okay.
Males even get to pose fully nude on the top end, there'd be an outcry if that was expected for women, talk about a two standard society.

I'm all for getting rid of biki armor and buff plate clad women covered in scars being a thing. I wouldn't mind either if less then 95% of the depiction of women wearing non gender enhancing clothing wouldn't look like a model dressed up for a LARP ad. But that's just me.

 

[Oofta]

Maybe it's because I always depict orcs as having green skin* but I never associated orcs with any specific ethnicity. They've always been the savage barbarians that want to tear down civilization. If anything, they're vikings or pirates.

Drow on the other hand? I don't remember the last time I used them. I guess they exist in my world, but mostly that's so I can tell new players that they can't play a Drizzt clone because they wouldn't be accepted in society.

But vampire spawn? Am I missing something? Reasonable clothing, tattered dress, bare feet, obviously undead? Check. Not sure what's problematic.

Solar? Beefy guy in a dress. Hmm.

Art has to have some inspiration. I'm not saying the depiction of hobgoblins is great, but other than the hair I don't see anything that screams samurai. Plenty of fantasy armors are depicted like that. He's also wielding a longsword so culturally he's kind of a mess. The 1E depiction is a bit cringe inducing. But what about monsters like the Oni? Are they no longer allowed because they came from a non-western-european mythology?

I guess I'm saying that as much as I keep an open mind I don't see any way of having art that doesn't remind people of some stereotype somewhere. The Vistani are problematic, I don't think that means every creature has to have bland generic western dress.

*When did orcs and goblins change from the old green skin tone? I'm getting old.

 

[Remathilis]

For ability scores, would something like Knowledge and Awareness for Int and Wis (as per @AlexandraErin on twitter) be the kind of change you're talking about on ability scores? Would that actually affect the game mechanically at all? So, except for the fact that all changes will annoy someone, does it have any downside to counteract the plus of avoiding IQ like things?

Partially. I've seen proposals like this that attempt to fix ability scores by modernizing them, but I've also seen calls for thier abolishment all together, or at least the mechanical element of them. I don't want to misconstrue their argument, but I distinctly recall the notion of measuring ones strength, intelligence, etc is inherently ableist and the game rewards "fit" members of society (high scores) and punishes "disabled" ones (low scores) with penalties. Further, the role-playing of such low scores are full of ableist stereotypes on what "disability" looks like.

Personally, while I can see some argument for what they are saying, it seems that removing ability scores might be too radical an overhaul to do without rewriting the game. However, it's another storm that may bubble up in the years to come.

 

[Zardnaar]

Drow need a fix. Probably something like +2 dex, +1 int or charisma. They're supposed to be good wizards. Oops.

Or all races get a floating +2 a'la Pathfinder 2.