D&D 5E What Makes an Orc an Orc?

[Campbell]

And a lot of these were introduced into the hobby by the old grognards themselves. A good bunch of the newer players are, in fact, returning to the hobby after years of hiatus. They are using the newer setting because WotC does not wish to update Greyhawk and other old settings.

You might be surprised at how fast boxed sets of Greyhawk are selling on eBay. For some reasons, old grognards like me are allergic to PDF files. This bugs me to no end but yet, I do have a gaming computer that a lot of young gamers are jealous about. I have two tablets for PDF and a portable computer for faster references. And guess what? My group composed of old players like me do not use the tablets. I had to print out every documents I had to translate while my players that are in their mid thirties have their own tablets with the translated files.

PS: I am a French speaking person and so are my players. I had to translate a lot of the books for them so that we could use all classes and spells. I don't like to wait for translated books.

I personally feel a lot has been lost in the transition from the classic game to the modern game particularly in terms of GM ethos and scenario design. I play in a Freebooters on the Frontier game and Mork Borg game. I regularly run and play other OSR games like Dungeon Crawl Classics, Stars Without Number, Mothership, Beyond The Wall, and (hopefully soon) Old School Essentials.

I just fundamentally disagree that something is lost in the move towards a more socially conscious and inclusive game. It's important to me on a personal and a social level. It's something I consider when choosing where to spend my money.

I personally see nothing wrong with anyone (including people I vehemently disagree with) clearly expressing their preferences and providing feedback on the type of game they would like to see. On a less socially contentious note I would rather Wizards and Paizo create more open ended modules instead of the linear story focused adventures they are producing right now. Expressing what I want to see should not be contentious.

 

[Helldritch]

1) Good news, then. The recent changes being demanded WotC make to races aren’t for change’s sake. They’re for the sake of making the game more welcoming to people of color.


2)It’s broken.


3) Actually for most of them, the answer has been to stop playing.


4)The core books are where new players get introduced to the game. If it makes them feel unwelcome, they won’t stick around to try other settings. Additionally, they shouldn’t have to deviate from the standard expectations to be able to play characters that appeal to them and not have to be evil. Maybe if you want races with mono cultures, you should play settings that specifically accommodate that, and let the core rules be as inclusive as possible.

1) That is your perception, not mine and I do not share it one iota. A lot of people do not see this as you do. We do not deny their feelings. We do not agree as to why they have these. Unfortunately, the feeling and the origin of what leads to these perceptions can't be argued with because feelings and perceptions can't be argued with. Am I a bad person for not seeing things as you do? I don't think so. But this is how some people try to make us feel.

2) Again this is your perception. For me it is perfectly fine.

3) A bold assumption for a hobby that has never been more popular. A few cases here and there maybe. But it was not drove after drove. And I am certain that if someone had taken time to discuss with them, they would have felt differently. But that is a slippery debate that we can not have on this forum.

4) The core rules are already, fortunately, on my side. It is the DM's job to explain things to the new players and to make them feel welcomed. D&D has always been inclusive, it is only recently that all of a sudden people are seeing racist connotations where there are none. The popularity of the hobby brought it under the scrutiny of a lot of people and not necessarily people that were truly ready to speak of their views with people knowledgeable in the hobby that could have reassured them. For me, saying orcs = black people is an utter aberration. I could bring you quite a few examples that would show you that they are representation of quite a number of different cultures and ethnicity.

And again, if all races can be as culturally varied as humans, why should have them in the first place???
We would be better off with different human cultures where it could not be associated with racism in the real world because all monsters would be something else than humanoid. At least, your orc would not be a human with a funny face because there would be no orcs to start with. My solution is a big change from someone that is supposed to hate change. And this would be infinitely more inclusive than allowing zounds of phony culture to different races because the concept of races will always bring the racist specter in one form or another.

 

[MGibster]

In all honesty, I am a HUGE fan of the 40k ork, to the point where I recreated them for my 5e sci-fi game.

They're one of the best things about the setting in that they're so fun.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

it is only recently that all of a sudden people are seeing racist connotations where there are none.

False. Unequivocally false. People have been pointing out this stuff for decades.

For me, saying orcs = black people is an utter aberration.

Literally no one is saying that orcs are Black people.

again, if all races can be as culturally varied as humans, why should have them in the first place???

This has been answered a dozen times in the threads related to orcs in dnd. Today.

 

[Helldritch]

1) False. Unequivocally false. People have been pointing out this stuff for decades.

2) Literally no one is saying that orcs are Black people.


This has been answered a dozen times in the threads related to orcs in dnd. Today.

1) Well, not as much as it has been lately. Now it feels like a witch hunt.

2) Well, go check other threads. The description of orcs fits the racists description of black people by racists. This approach has been hammered onto me time and time again. Just as drows are a racist depiction of black people too. Go read those thread, you will see.

 

[MGibster]

I don't know about anyone else, but I am tired of having this same argument over orcs and drow. Do we really have to have it in every thread?

 

[doctorbadwolf]

1) Well, not as much as it has been lately. Now it feels like a witch hunt.

2) Well, go check other threads. The description of orcs fits the racists description of black people by racists. This approach has been hammered onto me time and time again. Just as drows are a racist depiction of black people too. Go read those thread, you will see.

If you view every twitter comment as a public backlash, all kinds of false things seem true. Regardless, this stuff has been called out as racist for decades. The only new thing is those calls being heard.

I've been active in those threads, and no, that is not what is being said in them. At all.

 

[Charlaquin]

1) That is your perception, not mine and I do not share it one iota. A lot of people do not see this as you do. We do not deny their feelings. We do not agree as to why they have these. Unfortunately, the feeling and the origin of what leads to these perceptions can't be argued with because feelings and perceptions can't be argued with. Am I a bad person for not seeing things as you do? I don't think so. But this is how some people try to make us feel.

This doesn’t make sense as a response to my statement of the fact that these changes are being made for inclusion’s sake, not for change’s sake. That’s not a matter of opinion, it is the stated reason for the change. You can have a different opinion about whether those changes are needed or if they will achieve the stated goal of making the game more inclusive, but inclusivity is the reason they’re being demanded.

2) Again this is your perception. For me it is perfectly fine.

Great, have fun playing however you like. For those of us for whom it is not fine, we’re going to continue to demand change.

3) A bold assumption for a hobby that has never been more popular. A few cases here and there maybe. But it was not drove after drove. And I am certain that if someone had taken time to discuss with them, they would have felt differently. But that is a slippery debate that we can not have on this forum.

One need only look at the player demographics to see that, yes, this has been a persistent problem. The hobby has been overwhelmingly dominated by white cis men and boys until recently, because it was not a welcoming space for people of other groups. D&D, and geek culture in general has taken some steps towards becoming more inclusive, which is why we’re starting to see a shift towards a more diverse gaming community. But with that comes pressure to continue the push towards inclusivity. You don’t have to like it, but that’s the way it is.

4) The core rules are already, fortunately, on my side. It is the DM's job to explain things to the new players and to make them feel welcomed. D&D has always been inclusive, it is only recently that all of a sudden people are seeing racist connotations where there are none.

Incorrect. These same complaints have been being made for decades, it is only now that they are finally beginning to be taken seriously by the developers. And, of course, as progress is made towards inclusivity, the fandom grows more diverse, which makes it easier for the complaints coming from marginalized players to be heard.

The popularity of the hobby brought it under the scrutiny of a lot of people and not necessarily people that were truly ready to speak of their views with people knowledgeable in the hobby that could have reassured them.

What are you on about?

For me, saying orcs = black people is an utter aberration. I could bring you quite a few examples that would show you that they are representation of quite a number of different cultures and ethnicity.

No one is saying orcs = black people.

And again, if all races can be as culturally varied as humans, why should have them in the first place???

Because they’re cool.

We would be better off with different human cultures where it could not be associated with racism in the real world because all monsters would be something else than humanoid. At least, your orc would not be a human with a funny face because there would be no orcs to start with.

Sounds boring to me. If you like that idea, you’re welcome to play your own games that way.

My solution is a big change from someone that is supposed to hate change.

I thought you only hated change for change’s sake?

And this would be infinitely more inclusive than allowing zounds of phony culture to different races because the concept of races will always bring the racist specter in one form or another.

I disagree.

 

[Flamestrike]

A few months ago, I'd have said: "Orcs are primitive, savage, violent raiders who take what they want by force and destroy what they can't have." But none of those tropes are going to survive 2020.

Yes they will. That will still be the default Orc, because of culture. At least in Faerun and Greyhawk and other places.

It's just the game will go to greater pains to explain that the reason Orcs are (generally) like this is due to their (evil) Gods, and other aspects of their culture.

 

[Helldritch]

I don't know about anyone else, but I am tired of having this same argument over orcs and drow. Do we really have to have it in every thread?

And I the same. Even if this time I am the one who brought that up. It seems that some posters do not remember the same things that we do.

As for our topic.
Canonical orcs
1) Evil. The main cause for this is because their god(s) made them that way.
2) Strong, endurant and not too bright.
3) Practice the might makes right. A leader last as long as he is the strongest or has the most numerous allies.
4) Their main source of food and wealth is raiding and pillaging. Otherwise they are hu yer gatherers with no respect for nature.
5) View all other races as obstacles for total world domination by the orc race. When they associate with someone from another race, it is out of fear or to get riches they would not get by themselves.

Non canonical orcs
1) Strong and endurant.
2) Can be of any alignment.
3) Do not practice the might makes right but respect strenght and battle prowess. Are often honorables and depending on the setting, quite close to nature.
4) Move away from pillaging and raid in favor of hunting and gathering. They will also use trade for their other needs.
5) View other races as weak but resourceful. Members of other races can earn the orcs' respect by showing either strength or a strong respect for nature (if this is in the setting).

So? What both orcish types have in common are:
Strong and endurant race that respect these qualities in others. Both society rely more or less on hunting and gathering for their resource. These are the things that makes an orc...an orc.