D&D 5E What Makes an Orc an Orc?

[Guest 6801328]

Nah, those are vastly more interesting.

Really? At least alignment has some kind of impact on what the character does and how they act (at least in theory). An ability score bonus just means that when success on tasks is determined using random number generation, they sometimes succeed when otherwise they would have failed. How is that "interesting"?

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Really? At least alignment has some kind of impact on what the character does and how they act (at least in theory). An ability score bonus just means that when success on tasks is determined using random number generation, they sometimes succeed when otherwise they would have failed. How is that "interesting"?

They tell about the biological differences between the species. Like a strong and tough species probably generally approaches things somewhat differently than smart and agile one. Like you know, how bears and foxes behave differently.

 

[Charlaquin]

They tell about the biological differences between the species. Like a strong and tough species probably generally approaches things somewhat differently than smart and agile one. Like you know, how bears and foxes behave differently.

The thing is, ability score increases don’t really do that. The full 8-20 range (or 3-20 range if you roll) is available to characters of any race, and ability score modifiers aren’t a reliable indicator of averages since PCs are by definition not average. The only thing they do is make some race/class combinations more optimal than others.

 

[Guest 6801328]

They tell about the biological differences between the species. Like a strong and tough species probably generally approaches things somewhat differently than smart and agile one. Like you know, how bears and foxes behave differently.

So describe them as typically smart or strong in the text.

When you roll your character, if you want to be typical of the race, assign your high score to that stat.

How does getting a +1 or +2 to that stat actually make it more interesting to play the race?

 

[Warpiglet-7]

They tell about the biological differences between the species. Like a strong and tough species probably generally approaches things somewhat differently than smart and agile one. Like you know, how bears and foxes behave differently.

Exactly.

wookies pull people’s arms out of sockets when angry, etc.

if all you have is a tall hairy guy? I dunno.

and species is the operative word. Different species do have different abilities and physical ability.

I am just not identifying with the outrage in a game predicated on cracking the skulls of sentient beings to succeed and survive.

murder? Ok. Acknowledging real differences between creatures is what gets dropped as going too far?

No. Go ahead if you want. I know some people will roll with that and it’s fine just does not seem nearly interesting with all the sameness.

I have always enjoyed playing against type. When we homogenize races/species and culture, all that goes away.

can we even say tieflings have infernal heritage? That yuan-ti are reptilian sociopaths (generally?).

Deep down maybe D&D is just not the game people are looking for.

I know, I know. Mearls and WOTC want to“fire” people who don’t conform. Where’s my pink slip? Give me two copies. One to take a dump on and one to wipe my a** with.

If we have to toil to decide what an Orc is allowed to be, its already jacked up.

Orcs were fine a few months ago. I think this is absolutely reactionary. But what is unfortunate is that rash decisions can start to dilute a great game that has stood the test of time. Now maybe I am being reactionary. Maybe this roll will get slowed.

 

[Guest 6801328]

I have always enjoyed playing against type.

Then why on earth would you want ability score modifiers?

"I want to play a weak Wookie, so I'll put my 8 in Strength."

"Ok...it becomes 10, though."

"Wait, what? I wanted to play against type!"

 

[Crimson Longinus]

The thing is, ability score increases don’t really do that. The full 8-20 range (or 3-20 range if you roll) is available to characters of any race, and ability score modifiers aren’t a reliable indicator of averages since PCs are by definition not average. The only thing they do is make some race/class combinations more optimal than others.

I think I already answered your similar point earlier...

(I ignore rolling as no one does that, or if they do, I don't care.)

Bonuses have big impact on early levels. If a person chooses to play a big and strong species they probably want to that to be reflected in the rules, and might feel cheated if character of small and weak species is just as strong as them. And a starting Orc can be noticeably stronger than a starting Halfling. (Sure, probably not as much as would be realistic, but it still matters.) A Halfling can catch up with Orc's strength at level 12. By this point we are already entering 'mythic hero' territory, (and most campaings don't even go this far) so realism doesn't matter that much by then. Furthermore, I feel that dex and strength are stats where big disparities are fine, as most fighting classes can be built to run on either, so as long as you can get a decent score in one of them you're good to go.

So yeah, I strongly feel that lore of the species should actually be reflected in the mechanics. I'm fully supportive of making orcs not to be just stupid evil caricatures but I don't want species to just become skins and mechanics becoming completely detached from the lore.

 

[Guest 6801328]

Orcs were fine a few months ago.

Oh, and that is just inherently wrong.

Just because you (and I) have become aware of a problem, doesn't mean it wasn't a problem before we became aware of it.

In fact, even just saying that carries a connotation of "It's not really a problem, it's just that a bunch of muck-stirrers have turned it into a problem." In other words, it's a PR problem, not a real problem.

Which I suppose, based on many of your posts, might very well be what you believe.

 

[Jfdlsjfd]

If this doesn't work for you, what about existing write ups from elves, dwarves, gnomes, etc does work to depict a nonhuman culture? Is it just lifespan? Humans can certainly live in forests or underground. I thought Baconbitz' description covered the salient points at least as well as other races are described.

Earlier in the thread, @Doug McCrae postulated that there was three answers to the thread's question :

a) Human with tusks
b) Very alien
c) Remove all race flavour text.


I feel the PHB nearly does c). Unless you use a setting book or create your own setting to make distinctive races (that would be B), all you have is A... Besides mechanical bonuses, there is very little reason in the PHB to have elves and dwarves and halfling because they are rather interchangeable. What makes "orcs" "orcs"? Not a lot of thing anymore. Having several cultures isn't distinctive, it's just a feature of all the existing races, including humans. They had a distinctive feature, being "evil" (which I never meant was terribly imaginative or unheard of in any other race in the game, despite what others have apparently understood from my posts, I just mentionned that it was their single distinctive feature making them filling a niche a nomadic tribe of humans couldn't). Where you say "at least as well as the other races", I agree, but I think the other races are already humans with pointy ears/beards and could be easily replaced with human cultures, unless you try to make them especially alien.

 

[Doug McCrae]

Orcs were fine a few months ago.

ENWorld thread, Do orcs in gaming display parallels to colonialist propaganda? from March 2019. For most of the past year, any thread on the topic got locked. That might be one reason it seemed fine.

These two books cover the subject:
Roger Echo-Hawk, Tolkien in Pawneeland (1st ed 2013)
Helen Young, Race and Popular Fantasy Literature (2018)

The 3e Living Greyhawk module The Only Good Orc... (2005) references the phrase "the only good injun is a dead injun" attributed to 19th century US general Philip Sheridan. The module features an orcish paladin of St Cuthbert, the "good orc" of the title.