D&D 5E What Makes an Orc an Orc?

[Charlaquin]

@Charlaquin

A bonus tied to culture would be better. Racial bonuses to stats should stay. Example: Orcs are a strong race, they get +2 to strength. If an orc is from a culture that favor scholars he could add a +1 to either intelligence or wisdom. If he is from a mercantile culture the bonus could apply to wisdom or charisma.

You could also decide to lessen the racial bonus to +1 and allow the cultural aspect take a more proeminent place. The orc from a scholar culture could add +1 to Intel and +1 to wisdom or +2 to one of the two.

Choosing a race should have a meaningful impact on character creation but culture could (should?) have an impact too. On that last part, I agree with you.

I have played around with the idea of having race grant an increase to a physical stat (Str, Dex, or Con) and culture grant an increase to a mental stat (Int, Wis, or Cha). But ultimately, I don’t think ability score adjustments are worth the trouble. Just my opinion.

On an other note.
The Halloween costume analogy might not suit you. But you can't deny that this is what it would look like if races had no meaningful impact. You might not like this argument, but unless you prove it wrong it is a valid argument. This is what I feel that it would look and play like. And from what I can see I am not the only one. What would you consider to be a meaningful and impactful alternative?

I’ve already been over this endlessly in the thread. There are plenty of ways to meaningfully mechanically differentiate races from one another that don’t punish certain race/class combinations. All 5e races already have at least few such features. A few have several (elves and dwarves, for instance.)

 

[Charlaquin]

I worry that the good ship "Completely Unproblematic" may have sailed. We might have to settle for "not terribly problematic" instead.

Short of a ground-up rewrite, I agree, and I don’t think D&D is ready for such an overhaul yet. Doesn’t mean I’m going to stop advocating for it. If you ask for a mile, sometimes they’ll give an inch to try and shut you up.

 

[Helldritch]

I’ve already been over this endlessly in the thread. There are plenty of ways to meaningfully mechanically differentiate races from one another that don’t punish certain race/class combinations. All 5e races already have at least few such features. A few have several (elves and dwarves, for instance.)

Yes, and gave nothing as a satisfactory replacement. I understand your point of inclusivity. But that route seems to disservice both the game and your goal. Your idea that culture should have influence on ability scores finally rang a bell in me but the removal of racial bonuses does not bear scrutiny for the moment.

 

[Mr Fixit]

No. The player's stats shouldn't do that because they don't need to. The "race" available for the PC is not the whole darn race. It's just the package of abilities you get if you choose that ancestry. Yes, in general elves are lithe, dwarves are tough, and half-orcs are strong. But there's no need to reflect that in the race entry and not in the class or background or in an arbitrary selection during character creation because each PC is different. The PCs are allowed to be exceptional members of their race, and that includes having uncommon talents.

Sorry for asking, as I am not entirely sure of your position. Are you advocating the elimination of any and all mechanical expressions of various D&D races? If not, why only ability scores bonuses and not, say, wood elves 5ft speed bonus?

PS. I am getting the impression this discussion has veered off from OP's "mission statement": If we want to avoid racially charged languages in our descriptions of intelligent humanoids (and I sure think we should at least try), what does a "race" write up look like in the PH?

Certain posters now seem to argue from the position of wanting to incentivize all race-class combinations and not penalize, say, dwarf wizards. While that discussion is worth having, and is decades old to boot, I fear it can only derail us from the topic at hand.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Yes, and gave nothing as a satisfactory replacement. I understand your point of inclusivity. But that route seems to disservice both the game and your goal. Your idea that culture should have influence on ability scores finally rang a bell in me but the removal of racial bonuses does not bear scrutiny for the moment.

I actually think that culture affecting ability bonuses is a terrible idea. Cultures in fantasy worlds tend to correspond to real cultures far more directly than the fantasy races ever do so tying bonuses to them gets to super problematic territory really fast.

 

[Redwizard007]

This may be pushing the conversation a bit, but since it has wandered so much already...

What if, instead of floating bonuses or eliminating stat bonuses/penalties 6e built roles instead of classes and left bonuses in place? For example a dwarven "tank" might be con based, but an elven "tank" could be dex based, and a tortle "tank" could be wis based. Actually, you could remove the ability scores from the game entirely and just say "fighters hit AC x on a roll of y or higher. If you remove the must-key-off-of-stat-x from class features then racial abilities are no longer a feature of game balance. Whether they remain for flavor would be a different matter.

 

[Guest 6801328]

I've been thinking about a true floating +2, +1. That is, put those bonuses wherever you want them, regardless of race.

This would seem to solve the problem of "Dragonborn should be strong" or whatever. Just put your highest attribute in Strength, then give it the +2. Solved.

Here are the objections I can think of, with counter-arguments:

"I want certain races to favor certain classes, and dis-favor others. For example, I think Halflings should be rogues, and should not be Paladins."

Ok. I disagree with you, and don't think that really adds anything to the game. But that's your opinion.

"Halfings should never start with 17 Strength."

I agree that's odd. But...by level 4 a Hafling could have 17 Strength, so I'm not sure it's really all that big of a deal if it happens 3 levels earlier. And ultimately not only is everybody (except Barbarians) capped at 20 for all scores, but everybody can get there by level 12 at the very latest. So it's not like Halflings with 20 Strength can't exist in the game as it is. If you object to strong Halflings, that horse left the barn in 2014.

"This smells like some kind of left-wing plot to steal my fun."

I haven't seen anybody actually make this argument...at least not in this specific context, in those specific words...but it wouldn't surprise me if there's somebody out there who thinks this. If so, I guess there's not much I can say to help.

"This will make everybody the same. We might as well just have humans."

I find this argument particularly silly, since the non-human races still have a bunch of special abilities that are not attribute bonuses, plus there's physical characteristics, languages known, and fluff. (As I said upthread, Tortles and Centaurs have identical stat bonuses, but I don't think they're in danger of being confused for each other.)

EDIT: Here's another:

"Because D&D has always had racial modifiers."

Ummm...ok.

What else did I miss?

 

[Guest 6801328]

Sorry for asking, as I am not entirely sure of your position. Are you advocating the elimination of any and all mechanical expressions of various D&D races? If not, why only ability scores bonuses and not, say, wood elves 5ft speed bonus?

Because while certain classes may benefit slightly more (or less) from a 5 ft speed bonus, it doesn't make enough of a difference that it should dissuade you from choosing a race simply because it appeals to you (as opposed to choosing a race because it optimizes your character design.)

 

[Bacon Bits]

These are called tropes. They are a useful tool to tell a story. These trope can also be used to do the unexpected and making that minotaur rogue will surprise your players or their foes. Just as the armored dwarf casting a fireball would be a massive surprise.

Tropes create expectations and playing on these expectations is what makes the game interesting. We all know that orcs don't cast spells. And boom! An orc wizard comes and shakes that belief.

But without these tropes, there is no expectations and thus, no surprise. This is simply because every races can be anything without a cost to pay in effectiveness. You lose the element of surprise. You go from: "What? That orc throws us a cone of cold!!???" To "Ho, that orc was a wizard. (Yawn)."

I mean, Orc Shaman is a trope, too, but I'll argue your point.

Here's the thing. Other forms of media use tropes in their storytelling, and they don't have to detail fixed racial ability modifiers to do it. They can just say, "Wookiees favor bowcasters and are adept with mechanical repair." and "Vulcans favor logic and use strict mental discipline to build mental fortitude as a path to self-actualization." and "The Elves of Mirkwood favor long knives and the bow." You can just say it and it's so. In-game, you could give Wookiees automatic bowcaster and Repair skill proficiency. You can give Vulcans automatic Insight proficiency, and advantage on Int, Wis, and Cha saves. You can give Elves of Mirkwood proficiency with daggers, short swords, and bows. You don't need a +2 Str, +2 Int, or +2 Dex?

Furthermore, there are lots of tropes in the game itself that go against the current racial ability modifiers. High Elves are supposed to favor longswords. Since when have you seen one do that in game? Their Dex bonus makes rapier the superior choice, so why did the whole race bother with longswords? Tieflings are supposed to create suspicion and fear from their appearance, but their bonus to Charisma means they're more likely to be trusted (faithfully or otherwise) and liked by those they meet. Half-Elves are similarly supposed to be unwelcome in both Human and Elven lands, but their Charisma bonus doesn't really seem to follow from that. And why exactly do Dragonborn get Str and Cha instead of, well, anything else? Because Sorcerers have a Dragon path? So Dragonborn are linked to Sorcery? All of them? Yes, dragons are strong and carry a mighty presence, but they're also tough, cunning and wise. Indeed, the only thing a dragon isn't is nimble, which is part of why they're so fearsome. So... why Str and Cha? And if Kobolds are also draconic in origin... why do they get a bonus to Dex and a Str penalty?

 

[Helldritch]

I actually think that culture affecting ability bonuses is a terrible idea. Cultures in fantasy worlds tend to correspond to real cultures far more directly than the fantasy races ever do so tying bonuses to them gets to super problematic territory really fast.

Warrior culture +1 to con, str or dex
Scholar culture +1 to int or wis
Merchant culture +1 to wis or cha
Religious culture +1 to wis or cha
Imperialistic culture +1 to st, con or int.
Nature oriented culture, +1 to dex, con or wis
Hunter gatherer culture +1 to str, con or wis
Etc....
No real culture were copied. No correlation can be made with real life culture. The list above can be extend a lot more and could even have mixes of two cultures blended in. Warrior/ merchant culture for example.