D&D 5E What Makes an Orc an Orc?

[Oofta]

We are trying to sanitise our games so that we can sanitise ourselves.
For years we have tried it the other way around and it hasn't worked well for the human race.
So we are now embracing the fight in our niche hobby and one day we will work our way up to MSM and our leaders.

Join up now.
Young people from all over the globe are joining up to fight for the future.
I'm doing my part!
I'm doing my part!
I'm doing my part!
I'm doing my part too!
They're doing their part. Are you?
Join the change.orc and save the world.
Service guarantees citizenship!

Yeah, who will think of the bugs?

 

[Remathilis]

I haven't read the whole thread, so apologies if this has already been asked.

What is the purpose of having different playable races in a fantasy RPG?

Got another 200 posts? It's going to take that many to answer that.

A while ago, I would have said it was a safe way to explore themes about humanity with things that are clearly not human. For example, exploring the theme of slavery and exploitation is touchy if not impossible in an RPG, unless you make it about two entities that are no longer human (say, mind-flayers and gith). However, the argument presented is even if you change the analogy, the fact that the theme still exists is problematic, and so it doesn't matter if its Plantation owners and slaves, Drow elves and quaggoths, mind-flayers and gith, or Hutts and Twi-leks; the fact that one group has such power over another group reflects the real world power-imbalance that still echo through modern society and affect people today.

The answer is to not have those themes exist as defining traits of anything; orcs, drow, mind-flayers, Hutts. However, when that's done the analogy these races represent are no longer valid, and they become humans in rubber suits; they can be everything and anything a human can while standing for nothing on its own. It stops mattering if the creature in the dungeon is an orc, human, drow, mind-flayer or whatever because they are equally capable of being good, bad, aggressive, pacifistic, or simply putting in a 9-to-5 as a human is.

What you make of that next is up to you.

 

[Flamestrike]

I've never promoted genocide. Is it okay to kill demons and devils because they're evil?

No. It's not OK to kill them because they're evil. Unless the killer themselves is evilly aligned of course, in which case that evil killer would likely agree with you.

It's only OK to kill demons and devils because they're actively trying to murder or harm someone else (or yourself) and there is no other option reasonably open to you to prevent that harm, other than lethal force. Being Demons and Devils this will likely be as close to 100 percent of the time as possible (with the odd notable exception).

What Demons, Devils or whatever have written on the alignment section of their character sheet or MM entry is irrelevant.

We dont kill things just because they're evil, because that makes us evil as well.

It's just a game. Some people want to play a TTRPG version of Doom.

Im sorry, but I'm pretty sure in Doom the demons or antagonists are always trying to kill you. That being the case, my point above still stands.

 

[Flamestrike]

Yeah, who will think of the bugs?

Bugs are comparable to sentient thinking peoples, capable of redemption, love and charity now are they?

 

[Oofta]

Bugs are comparable to sentient thinking peoples, capable of redemption, love and charity now are they?

You didn't get the reference. Starship Troopers.

 

[Flamestrike]

You didn't get the reference. Starship Troopers.

And Starship Troopers was actually putting a spotlight on an blatantly Evil Fascist human regime engaged in genocide against a peaceful alien culture who just wanted to be left alone.

I think you need to read that book/ watch that movie again if you missed that message. In it, we're the bad guys.

 

[Oofta]

No. It's not OK to kill them because they're evil. Unless the killer themselves is evilly aligned of course, in which case that evil killer would likely agree with you.

It's only OK to kill demons and devils because they're actively trying to murder or harm someone else (or yourself) and there is no other option reasonably open to you to prevent that harm, other than lethal force. Being Demons and Devils this will likely be as close to 100 percent of the time as possible (with the odd notable exception).

What Demons, Devils or whatever have written on the alignment section of their character sheet or MM entry is irrelevant.

We dont kill things just because they're evil, because that makes us evil as well.



Im sorry, but I'm pretty sure in Doom the demons or antagonists are always trying to kill you. That being the case, my point above still stands.

In some games the orcs are always trying to kill every every human, dwarf, especially elves and every other "core" playable race because that's what Gruumsh created them to do. In Doom you go to the hell dimension to take them on directly, just like sometimes PCs raid dungeons.

There is no "correct" way to play D&D, I support multiple styles of play.

 

[Laurefindel]

TL;DR?

Orcs are savage, bestial, stupid and superstitious. They are uncultured, poor makers of things, illiterate and sexually voracious. They are violent and lustful no matter how they may appear. Half-Orcs, by tempering their orc parts with superior human intellect and control, can be leaders in an orc tribe, but their savage and brutal nature relegates them to the slums of human society.

And that is all 5e.

And to add to it? I cannot think off the top of my head, a single "tribal" race that is not seen as wild or evil, usually both.

I don't know about "as bad", but most humanoid and giant "monsters" are pretty depraved too. Those described in Volo's are just more precise in their description of loathsomeness. Gnolls and hill giants particularly.

Opposition in D&D (monsters) is built on a paradigm where character-races can be nice and others are enemies, taking roots in the "order vs chaos" origins as a wargame. The simplest solution is too remove orcs completely, but the way monsters are defined, another creature will fill the void left by violent and brutish orcs. The monster manual (and Volo's) is irredeemable if all ideology that can be linked to racism is to be removed.

I'm not sure if the monstrous manual needs to be burned and redone or not, but either orcs are ok(ish) as they are, or all intelligent creatures (short of the most alien minds) are fundamentally just as bad.

 

[Oofta]

And Starship Troopers was actually putting a spotlight on an blatantly Evil Fascist human regime engaged in genocide against a peaceful alien culture who just wanted to be left alone.

I think you need to read that book/ watch that movie again if you missed that message. In it, we're the bad guys.

Dude, it was a joke not some in depth analysis of Heinlein.

 

[Guest 6801328]

First, it's only propaganda here in the real world. Propaganda is false and it's not false in game.

Yes. Exactly correct. You nailed it.

In the real world, the propaganda is false, but lots and lots and lots of people have been persuaded by it, and believe it, and it has caused untold harm for centuries. Some of which is still being being suffered acutely today, in America and elsewhere, by the descendants of the people against whom it was directed.

And now our make-believe game is using those same tropes in an imaginary world in which those awful lies are now true.

How can you possibly not see how harmful this is? And how "but they are make-believe people!" doesn't make it all ok?