D&D 5E What To Do With Racial ASIs?

[CleverNickName]

Fair enough, but what you literally did was moving the same problem (as much as it is a problem) to another location.

What purpose is served by changing the ASI from race to background? I get that you solve the problem of people selecting a limited band of races for certain classes. But doesn't this just mean that now players will select from a narrow band of backgrounds instead of race? The problem remains.

Yes. ASIs are always going to be problematic because there isn't a really good way to deploy them in the game. That's why I'm a fan of removing them entirely...but if you must have them, it makes more sense to me to have them linked to Background instead of race.

"I'm smart because everyone who looks like me is smart."
"I'm smart because I went to school for years."

They're both problematic, but one of those just sounds better in my head.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

The purpose of the point buy is to reflect individual differences due randomness and background while the purpose of racial ASIs is to reflect genetic tendencies.

 

[CleverNickName]

The purpose of the point buy is to reflect individual differences due randomness and background while the purpose of racial ASIs is to reflect genetic tendencies.

There's nothing wrong with that interpretation. But that's your interpretation, it isn't explicitly stated in the rules.
I would interpret it differently, and there's nothing wrong with that either.

 

[CleverNickName]

Yeah, I don’t see it fixing the issue I have with racial ASIs. I’m pretty sure CleverNickName has different issues and preferences than me though.

That's a safe bet. I'm a weirdo, even by "gamer geek" standards.

 

[DND_Reborn]

So, as of "this moment" we have a meager 146 voters with 242 votes. The breakdown hasn't been changing much for a while now, and currently stands at:

Although hardly perfect, the poll shows (of the votes, not voters...) less than 60% are for change of some sort. Given WotC's 60-70% desire before doing something, we are falling short of that just a wee bit. Basically, that tells me there is not enough consensus for change or what manner of change would be most "approved". You can draw your own conclusions... if any.

As people have noted, floating the bonuses is pretty much the same as just bumping up the point-buy and standard array. Now, it does pose a challenge for the default method, which is to roll 4d6k3. But, I am sure we could come up with some slightly (or majorly...) convoluted way of getting rolled dice to give us about 12.75 - 12.83 (-ish) average, and keep an acceptable range (max 18? sure, might as well...).

Moving them to class and/or background won't help either as by now hopefully we understand. Is my elf smart because he's an elf? a sage? or a wizard? Or all three? Yes, we could move the ASIs around, but then people will simply pick background to match their class. And if you want to be good in a class, odds are you already put a high score there, so why should being in that class make it better?

All your're really doing if mixing and matching whatever method is being used to get the scores you want: be it through race, background, class, or just putting scores there.

A significant number of votes (IMO) fell into both of the last two options: get rid of them and "other". Getting rid of them is the lowest (darn it, I had one vote there! sigh... ) and overall I don't think well-received. It seems (alas...) people want better scores, regardless of if they put them in their class's primary ability or elsewhere.

We've seen some pretty good suggestions as well from the "others" (you know who you are! ). A good number of people have also suggested making other features that reflect what the ASIs would accomplish for the races (which I think is a great idea myself, but whateves... shrug).

I want to thank each and every person for voting and contributing to the thread! I have loved participating with you all.

My final thoughts? (For now, anyway... )

Well, personally I would like to see ASIs removed from the races. I would like to see new racial traits that reflect the strengths (and hey, maybe even weaknesses?) of each race. Since each race got (for the most part) an ASI +2 and an ASI +1, maybe a major trait and a minor one to represent those ASIs. Then, offer a 32 (or so) point-buy and an "better" standard array, along with a dice method for the rollers out there, which would mechanically make up for the loss of the ASIs. Smaller races would have benefits and penalties (?) reflected in their size, but these should balance out, of course. In 5E, I see no issue with the STR 20 halfling getting that full +5 to attacks and damage, but at what--60-70 lbs?-- should not be carrying around 300 lbs of gear IMO.

Then, however you get your ability scores, put them where you want them, and make a really kick-@ss PC to enjoy!

Thanks again to all!

 

[Helldritch]

If they are it’s because their stat blocks are written this way, not because of the Ability Score Increase feature in the PC race. If you took said feature away, dwarf NPC stat blocks would still have higher than average con.


Not according to the rules in the monster manual. A DM can certainly choose to do so if they wish, and I often do, but it’s not a rule.


Yeah, I agree with that. I just don’t think PCs should be bound by that.

P342 of the MM
You can add racial trait to the NPC.
I'm not going to quote the whole MM but these NPCs are raceless. You can take them as is, or you can add the racial traits as described in the PHB. There is a difference in stats for a halfling thief and a dwarven thief. If I am in a hurry, I simply will not do it. But if I have time to prepare, they will be different from each others. ASI do not affect CR so a DM is not "forced" to do it. There is a big difference between can and might.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I’m not making any such claim. I’m saying that the Ability Score Increase feature in a PC race is for increasing the ability scores of PCs of that race, whereas NPCs of that race have their stats built from scratch, and are not affected by the player-facing mechanics in the PC write-up. You could remove the Ability Score Increase feature from the Bugbear PC race and still have Bugbear NPCs have higher Dexterity and Strength scores.


I’m not pretending they aren’t related. I am acknowledging that the mechanics for PCs and the mechanics for NPCs are different. If anything, modeling the same thing in one way on NPC stat blocks and a different way in PC race writeups is evidence of this. PCs can and do have different features than NPCs of the same race. That doesn’t mean the features aren’t related.


No, I am not. That’s not a claim I am making. Perhaps you have misunderstood my position.


I’d find that a very difficult idea to buy into too. It’s not the claim I made.

If you agree that they impact and communicate the concept of the race, then how can you disagree that it’s important that they be there?

A feature called “Strong: Your people are really strong.” Would not have the same effect. Something with mechanical weight would almost necessarily be more complex.

I’m fine with a variant, and indeed the optimizer in my brain would love for my gnome Paladin to the more effective, but the default needs to stay as it is.

 

[Scott Christian]

You misunderstand, I agree with you.

My DM disagrees with both of us, and he runs his games his way while I run them my way.

Which again, circles to the point "Skills are just as important as combat abilities" ends up being DM dependent. Yes, my DM runs the game in a way that is strange to most people, but that highlights the thought process going on. Every game has combat. not every game has heavy skill use.





Bugbears get a bonus to Dex and Str in Volos. They also tend to have higher than average Con in the Monster Manual.

Lizardfolk get Con and Wis. Their highest stat in every write-up is Strength. In fact, their constitution (which they have a +2 in) is the exact same as the Bugbear who has no Con bonus.

The Yuan-Ti Pureblood only gets Int and Cha bonuses, but they have a higher than average Dex and Wisdom as well

So, limited evidence, but it seems like @Charlaquin is on the money so far, the write-ups for NPCs and monsters do not accurately represent the racial stats. So, removing the Racial ASIs will likely have no effect on those stat blocks.





I don't get how you don't understand.

Starting with a 16
LV 4 get an 18
Lv 8 Get a 20

Starting with a 15
Lv 4 get a 17
lv 8 get a 19
lv 12 get a 20


By level 8 they are not the same. I mean, I could break this down a dozen different ways, with different starting points and different feats, but the end result is always the same. The person who starts with a 16 stays more powerful, consistently. Even if they both reach 20, the person with the 16 got there earlier, and can start taking feats.

This is what I don't understand. You are saying that a 5% difference is enough to alter the game, force the hand of many people to change the conception of their character (one they might play for years), and change the long standing rules of the game.
5%?! One magic item - boom, that 5% difference is gone. Multi attack, boom the difference is gone. Any hosts of feats, boom the difference is gone. Oh man, the cleric gave the other party members a bless spell, now my 5% is really really gone! Sneak attack, now my damage is not 5% better than the rogues, dang it, my 5% is gone.

That is why I do not understand your side of the argument. I understand if someone wants to get rid of ASI's because they feel it reflects real world problems. I understand and sympathize with that. But to say rework the entire system for 5% because the min/maxers want things balanced in a game that is already unbalanced - I cannot understand that. Especially knowing how intelligent everyone on these boards happen to be.

So you will have to forgive me. I do not understand.

PS - I do understand that it is not exactly 5%. I am using that as a standard basis for a +1 modifier.

 

[jasper]

I think if we take away the racial stat changes for what ever changes, we lose some no a lot of the flavor of D&D. So we would down grade the game from humans playing aliens in rubber masks to humans wearing cheap Halloween make up. OR wearing the 99 cent halloween masks.

 

[DND_Reborn]

I think if we take away the racial stat changes for what ever changes, we lose some no a lot of the flavor of D&D. So we would down grade the game from humans playing aliens in rubber masks to humans wearing cheap Halloween make up. OR wearing the 99 cent halloween masks.

I think changing the max ability score to reflect the racial differences would more accurately reflect it, not simply an initial bonus which can be made up for during the game. Saying a Halfling has max STR 16 and max DEX 20 would make more a difference from an orc with STR 20 max and DEX 16 max. But, due to how 5E does ability scores, many players won't like those sort of adjustments. The better alternative is to create racial traits that reflect those concepts, and not simply ASI bumps for mechanical represantation.