D&D 5E What To Do With Racial ASIs?

[doctorbadwolf]

This is helpful, yeah. It shows that PC race features are an option a DM can choose to add to an NPC stat block to further customize them, rather than something that is designed to be applied to NPCs.

No, it doesn’t. It shows that they know people will expect a halfling Druid to be different from a human Druid, in ways congruent with the playable writeup for Halflings, and provided pretty clear guidance on how to do that without having the MM have a dozen variants for each and every race non-specific NPC.

Not sure how that’s relevant.

Really?

Yes, because that’s how the stat block was designed, not because the PC race has a feature called ability score increase. You could remove that feature from the PC race, and the monster stat block wouldn’t have to change.

It was designed that way because bugbears in D&D are Dexterous and strong. Which is represented by the...Dexterity and Strength scores. It’s absurd to pretend that the critters don’t have the stats they do because of the expectations of their stats in the game, which is the same reason races have their stats. Pretending there is no link is just...wild as hell.

Nah, they have 5 foot reach. It’s just one example though. NPC stat blocks are designed differently than PC stat blocks, and racial features are designed to apply to the latter.

Reading it on ddb, looks like the used Brute to model the longer arm and bigger weapons of past editions in the MM, and used extended reach in the PC writeup to model the same thing. Please don’t pretend they aren’t related.

It is though, that’s how the rules work.

Are you really gonna act like the PC writeup a have no relationship to the worldbuilding of the game, or the expectations of what each creature is?

Not significantly. Two characters that are identical apart from having different strength scores will play identically apart from having different chances to hit and different damage with melee weapons. That’s what I mean when I say “exactly the same with different numbers.” The actions each character can perform, the effects they can have on the scenario, aren’t different, they just have different success rates with the same set of options.

okay. We play differently.

The things the abilities ostensibly represent define the race. How strong the character is, how tough, how fast, how learned, how perceptive, and how charming. Those things are not, however, well-reflected by the difference a +1 or +2 to an ability score makes in terms of the character’s actual capabilities.


I simply can’t agree with you that ability scores are any good at serving that function.

Then we might as well stop discussing it. I find the idea that they don’t impact the understanding of each race’s niche when one first reads the writeup to be completely impossible to buy into.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Yes, you can. I catch people lying at least once a week and am proven right, usually involving fraudulent attempts at returning items, or even just trying to lie about soemthing because they think if they don’t I will give them trouble over something I have no reason to care about.

I’m sorry but you and your DM are just wrong about this, and coming at the Insight skill from a very strange and uncommon point of view. I don’t think we or the game design need to account for very strange outliers. Most players are allowed to make Insight checks.

You misunderstand, I agree with you.

My DM disagrees with both of us, and he runs his games his way while I run them my way.

Which again, circles to the point "Skills are just as important as combat abilities" ends up being DM dependent. Yes, my DM runs the game in a way that is strange to most people, but that highlights the thought process going on. Every game has combat. not every game has heavy skill use.

I completely disagree. I think the idea you posit here is completely out of left field.

The dwarf has higher con because dwarfs in general have higher con. PC, NPC, all that changes is the specific methodology used to get there. In both cases, the dwarf has higher Con because the definition of the dwarf people is the writeup in the phb. Obviously part of that writeup is the bonus to Con. If it wasn’t, we wouldn’t be having this discussion. The dwarf is, in part, defined by being hardier than other folk, which is represented primarily in D&D by their Con score.

Bugbears get a bonus to Dex and Str in Volos. They also tend to have higher than average Con in the Monster Manual.

Lizardfolk get Con and Wis. Their highest stat in every write-up is Strength. In fact, their constitution (which they have a +2 in) is the exact same as the Bugbear who has no Con bonus.

The Yuan-Ti Pureblood only gets Int and Cha bonuses, but they have a higher than average Dex and Wisdom as well

So, limited evidence, but it seems like @Charlaquin is on the money so far, the write-ups for NPCs and monsters do not accurately represent the racial stats. So, removing the Racial ASIs will likely have no effect on those stat blocks.

I am sorry. I do not understand. Are we working with the same point buy system? (Or are you rolling stats?) I mean, you can still have the same score by 8th level. By fourth level, certain feats could outweigh any difference in successful attacks and damage. By fifth level, a class's power boost can set them so far apart from another class's attack hit/damage ratio it's absurd (think of a fighter's second attack). And by eighth level, most people are at 19. Literally, 2/5 into the game. This doesn't even bring into consideration magic items. If it is that disconcerting, should we also negate the use of items that offer a +1, or +2 or even a +3? So I do not understand, how does having that +2 that is quantifiable better?

I don't get how you don't understand.

Starting with a 16
LV 4 get an 18
Lv 8 Get a 20

Starting with a 15
Lv 4 get a 17
lv 8 get a 19
lv 12 get a 20


By level 8 they are not the same. I mean, I could break this down a dozen different ways, with different starting points and different feats, but the end result is always the same. The person who starts with a 16 stays more powerful, consistently. Even if they both reach 20, the person with the 16 got there earlier, and can start taking feats.

 

[Charlaquin]

It was designed that way because bugbears in D&D are Dexterous and strong. Which is represented by the...Dexterity and Strength scores. It’s absurd to pretend that the critters don’t have the stats they do because of the expectations of their stats in the game, which is the same reason races have their stats. Pretending there is no link is just...wild as hell.

I’m not making any such claim. I’m saying that the Ability Score Increase feature in a PC race is for increasing the ability scores of PCs of that race, whereas NPCs of that race have their stats built from scratch, and are not affected by the player-facing mechanics in the PC write-up. You could remove the Ability Score Increase feature from the Bugbear PC race and still have Bugbear NPCs have higher Dexterity and Strength scores.

Reading it on ddb, looks like the used Brute to model the longer arm and bigger weapons of past editions in the MM, and used extended reach in the PC writeup to model the same thing. Please don’t pretend they aren’t related.

I’m not pretending they aren’t related. I am acknowledging that the mechanics for PCs and the mechanics for NPCs are different. If anything, modeling the same thing in one way on NPC stat blocks and a different way in PC race writeups is evidence of this. PCs can and do have different features than NPCs of the same race. That doesn’t mean the features aren’t related.

Are you really gonna act like the PC writeup a have no relationship to the worldbuilding of the game, or the expectations of what each creature is?

No, I am not. That’s not a claim I am making. Perhaps you have misunderstood my position.

Then we might as well stop discussing it. I find the idea that they don’t impact the understanding of each race’s niche when one first reads the writeup to be completely impossible to buy into.

I’d find that a very difficult idea to buy into too. It’s not the claim I made.

 

[CleverNickName]

I made a half-hearted attempt to balance out ability score adjustments by Character Background. They're still pretty rough and could use a good deal of polish, but I like the overall vibe.

• Acolyte: having spent significant time among the priests and scholars at the temple, acolytes have a +2 to Wisdom and a +1 to Charisma.
• Athlete: years of rigorous, physical training give athletes a +2 to either their Strength or Dexterity score, and a +1 to Constitution.
• Charlatan: skilled negotiators, quick thinkers, and practiced liars, charlatans have a +2 to Charisma and a +1 to Intelligence.
• Criminal: always alert to danger, and always quick to react to it, criminals have a +2 to Dexterity and a +1 to their choice of Intelligence or Wisdom.
• Entertainer: years of special training and countless hours of rehearsal give the entertainer a +2 to Charisma and a +1 to Dexterity.
• Folk Hero: whether they are blessed by the gods, or just lucky, folk heroes always seem to be in the right place at the right time. They have a +2 to Wisdom and a +1 to Constitution.
• Gladiator: a unique blend of athlete, entertainer, and soldier, gladiators know how to thrill a crowd and handle themselves in combat. Gladiators have +2 to their choice of Strength or Constitution, and a +1 to Charisma.
• Guild Artisan: artisans have spent years learning the tools and techniques to ply their craft. Guild artisans have a +2 to Intelligence and +1 to their choice of Wisdom or Charisma.
• Guild Merchant: skilled at bartering, negotiation, and trade, adventurers with the merchant background have a +2 to Charisma and a +1 to Intelligence or Wisdom.
• Hermit: hermits have learned to be self-sufficient through years of reflection and isolation. They have a +1 to Dexterity, Constitution, and Wisdom.
• Knight/Noble: the noble classes enjoy many privileges that others lack, such as access to the best education, the largest families, and training in decorum. They have a +1 bonus to Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma.
• Outlander: those who live on the fringes of civilization learn to be self-sufficient and hardy. Outlanders have a +2 bonus to Constitution, and a +1 bonus to Wisdom.
• Sage: years of working in the field of academia has sharpened, strengthened, and expanded the mind of the sage. They gain a +2 bonus to Intelligence, and a +1 bonus to Wisdom.
• Sailor: countless voyages on the high seas has strengthened the sailor's body against disease, and given them quick minds and reflexes. They have a +2 bonus to Constitution, and a +1 bonus to Dexterity or Intelligence.
• Soldier: not everyone who can swing a sword is meant to be a soldier. Those who serve an army for a number of years gain strength and fortitude that others lack. Soldiers have a +2 bonus to their choice of Strength or Constitution, and a +1 bonus to Wisdom or Charisma.
• Spy: living two lives at once is no small task, and requires years of practice and specialized training. Spies have a +2 bonus to Charisma, and a +1 bonus to Dexterity.
• Urchin: growing up on the streets is a challenge, and urchins learn quickly that the best way to stay alive is to be faster and smarter than the person next to you. Urchins have a +2 bonus to Dexterity and a +1 bonus to Wisdom.

Again, I'm not a game designer. This list isn't perfect, but I still like it better than racial adjustments.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

I made a half-hearted attempt to balance out ability score adjustments by Character Background. They're still pretty rough and could use a good deal of polish, but I like the overall vibe.

• Acolyte: having spent significant time among the priests and scholars at the temple, acolytes have a +2 to Wisdom and a +1 to Charisma.
• Athlete: years of rigorous, physical training give athletes a +2 to either their Strength or Dexterity score, and a +1 to Constitution.
• Charlatan: skilled negotiators, quick thinkers, and practiced liars, charlatans have a +2 to Charisma and a +1 to Intelligence.
• Criminal: always alert to danger, and always quick to react to it, criminals have a +2 to Dexterity and a +1 to their choice of Intelligence or Wisdom.
• Entertainer: years of special training and countless hours of rehearsal give the entertainer a +2 to Charisma and a +1 to Dexterity.
• Folk Hero: whether they are blessed by the gods, or just lucky, folk heroes always seem to be in the right place at the right time. They have a +2 to Wisdom and a +1 to Constitution.
• Gladiator: a unique blend of athlete, entertainer, and soldier, gladiators know how to thrill a crowd and handle themselves in combat. Gladiators have +2 to their choice of Strength or Constitution, and a +1 to Charisma.
• Guild Artisan: artisans have spent years learning the tools and techniques to ply their craft. Guild artisans have a +2 to Intelligence and +1 to their choice of Wisdom or Charisma.
• Guild Merchant: skilled at bartering, negotiation, and trade, adventurers with the merchant background have a +2 to Charisma and a +1 to Intelligence or Wisdom.
• Hermit: hermits have learned to be self-sufficient through years of reflection and isolation. They have a +1 to Dexterity, Constitution, and Wisdom.
• Knight/Noble: the noble classes enjoy many privileges that others lack, such as access to the best education, the largest families, and training in decorum. They have a +1 bonus to Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma.
• Outlander: those who live on the fringes of civilization learn to be self-sufficient and hardy. Outlanders have a +2 bonus to Constitution, and a +1 bonus to Wisdom.
• Sage: years of working in the field of academia has sharpened, strengthened, and expanded the mind of the sage. They gain a +2 bonus to Intelligence, and a +1 bonus to Wisdom.
• Sailor: countless voyages on the high seas has strengthened the sailor's body against disease, and given them quick minds and reflexes. They have a +2 bonus to Constitution, and a +1 bonus to Dexterity or Intelligence.
• Soldier: not everyone who can swing a sword is meant to be a soldier. Those who serve an army for a number of years gain strength and fortitude that others lack. Soldiers have a +2 bonus to their choice of Strength or Constitution, and a +1 bonus to Wisdom or Charisma.
• Spy: living two lives at once is no small task, and requires years of practice and specialized training. Spies have a +2 bonus to Charisma, and a +1 bonus to Dexterity.
• Urchin: growing up on the streets is a challenge, and urchins learn quickly that the best way to stay alive is to be faster and smarter than the person next to you. Urchins have a +2 bonus to Dexterity and a +1 bonus to Wisdom.

Again, I'm not a game designer. This list isn't perfect, but I still like it better than racial adjustments.

Ok. I want to play a Guild Merchant Fighter. (She's kind of adventurous trader like Marco Polo.) My ability bonus for my background do not match any of Fighter's commonly desired abilities and unlike the race the background really doesn't provide any other useful perks either. How is this any better?

 

[CleverNickName]

How is this any better?

Because I like it better?

 

[MGibster]

What purpose is served by changing the ASI from race to background? I get that you solve the problem of people selecting a limited band of races for certain classes. But doesn't this just mean that now players will select from a narrow band of backgrounds instead of race? The problem remains.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Because I like it better?

Fair enough, but what you literally did was moving the same problem (as much as it is a problem) to another location.

 

[Charlaquin]

What purpose is served by changing the ASI from race to background? I get that you solve the problem of people selecting a limited band of races for certain classes. But doesn't this just mean that now players will select from a narrow band of backgrounds instead of race? The problem remains.

Yeah, I don’t see it fixing the issue I have with racial ASIs. I’m pretty sure CleverNickName has different issues and preferences than me though.

 

[Charlaquin]

Fair enough, but what you literally did was moving the same problem (as much as it is a problem) to another location.

Yeah, moving the ASIs to backgrounds just kicks the can down the road, for me. For others it might be mite appealing