Level Up (A5E) [+] What features should a "Advanced 5E" have?

[DeviousQuail]

Call me old-fashioned, but a game without the six stats isn't D&D to me. Doesn't mean it wouldn't be a good game though.

They are certainly one of the most sacred cows in d&d. It's a shame, too. So much starts with them and not being able to change means you'll always have to design with them in mind.

 

[Haldrik]

Note:

• Tough
• Athletic
• Perceptive
• Social

These four are really the traditional saving throws. These work so much better as the actual abilities!

• Fortitude
• Reflex
• Perception (save versus invisibility, stealth, subtlety, illusion, forgery, deception, etcetera)
• Will



So these three+one are old school D&D. But even better.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Well then try make the six: crystal clear, mutually exclusive, and balanced with each other.

I gave up a long time ago.

I am happier with other ability systems that make more sense and work better.

I see that. I just don't want D&D to be contorted into one of those systems. Let D&D be D&D, and let other games be other games. I'm all for innovation, I just think you change the stats that much, it stops being D&D.

 

[Haldrik]

I see that. I just don't want D&D to be contorted into one of those systems. Let D&D be D&D, and let other games be other games. I'm all for innovation, I just think you change the stats that much, it stops being D&D.

Maybe it is possible to compromise

TOUGH/FORTITUDE
• Strength (size, damage bonus)
• Constitution (health, hit points)

ATHLETIC/REFLEX
• Athletics (speed, run, jump, climb, balance, tumble, fall, swim)
• Melee (melee attack bonus, grappling, dodge, throw attack bonus)

PERCEPTIVE/PERCEPTION
• Dexterity (senses, steady hand, missile attack bonus)
• Intelligence (lore, deception)

SOCIAL/WILL
• Charisma (empathy, persuasion, fear-mongering, entertaining)
• Wisdom (willpower, sanity)

In this sense, one is really adding two abilities to the six. The default can be 4. But optionally a player might prefer to divide the four into eight by giving each bifurcation its own score.

 

[Minigiant]

Well then try make the six: crystal clear, mutually exclusive, and balanced with each other.

It's really not hard to do so.
The issue it seem is that personal biases and preferences always causes defining the 6 ability scores and balancing them into a afterthought.

If ability rolls are the most important rolls, you must design what they are and are for BEFORE you start thinking about races, classes, skills and spells. But it is always the other way around.

One the 4e did right was define what the ability scores were and how they could be used. 4e scores were the most balanced of all editions.

 

[Eubani]

NG outsiders were the guardinals, native to Elysium. Planescape had a species for every alignment:

LG: archons
NG: guardinals
CG: eladrin
CN: slaad
N: rilmani
LN: modrons
LE: baatezu/devils
NE: yugoloths/daemons
CE: tanar'ri/demons

LN also had Inevitables

 

[Haldrik]

It's really not hard to do so.
The issue it seem is that personal biases and preferences always causes defining the 6 ability scores and balancing them into a afterthought.

If ability rolls are the most important rolls, you must design what they are and are for BEFORE you start thinking about races, classes, skills and spells. But it is always the other way around.

One the 4e did right was define what the ability scores were and how they could be used. 4e scores were the most balanced of all editions.

But even 4e abilities were a bit klugy, again because of being shackled to a problematic sacred cow.

 

[Haldrik]

Hmmm. "Sacred cow" is really an insult to certain Hindu traditions.

I was about to say "fetish", but it isnt much better.

I guess there is a "fixation" with a certain problematic six abilities.

 

[Minigiant]

But even 4e abilities were a bit klugy, again because of being shackled to a problematic sacred cow.

I said it was the best. It was in no way near perfect. Itwasjust good. Not even very good.

I find 5e's not following and improving on 4e as a matter of being afraid to bite the bullet. Abilities and Skills should have been decoupled completely by default and not made that into a houserule.

For example, moving will save to Charisma helped, but Charisma should have had empathy (insight) to read people too.

Nope.
Reading people isn't Charisma. Charisma is personality, confidence, and eloquence. You can't push someone mentally to read them without intimidation or deception which are active skills.
Insight is a inactive or defensive skill. Charisma is outward not inward. Charisma is only used defensively when someone is trying to override your personality.

That's kinda my point. The first time you see ability scores described in 5e, it's less than half a page.
Then you don't see them again for over 150 more pages.
What the heck?

 

[Haldrik]

Reading people isn't Charisma.

Every reallife charismatic person can read people.

To separate people-reading from Charisma, is as idiotic as separating climbing from balance. Oh, wait! Idiotic!

The six abilities are highly problematic.