Level Up (A5E) [+] What features should a "Advanced 5E" have?

[CapnZapp]

Not sure if he has responded yet, but this seems right up @CapnZapp's alley.

Not sure Morrus' friend share my interests...

I should first say I'm envisioning an upgrade of 5E, not a supplementary toolset.

If I were to summarize a reply there wouldn't be any way around saying "more like 3E".

Not in the caster-martial balance or the insane NPC building workload, 5E is vastly superior in many (most!) areas. But in that there were many more ways a character could function in 3E. Most subclasses in 5E are just rehashing a skill proficiency there, advantage some check there. They always add breadth, never depth. Breadth meaning lost of new character concepts to play instead of your current character; depth meaning new subsystems that adds choice and variety to your current character.

From the player's viewpoint, what 5E lacks is more impactful decision points during all levels. Multi-classing helps a little, but isn't enough. Instead of just one major decision (subclass choice) there needs to be at least five, preferably ten (every other level). There's close to zero new mechanics subsystems since launch, and not very many to begin with.

You could retain broad compatibility with 5E while replacing advantage with a more granular system, re-adding back utility based magic pricing, and greatly upgrading the system's equivalent to a Monster Manual. The balance between melee and ranged characters probably need a tweak, too.

One advantage video game developers have is feedback data. If an ability isn't used enough in World of Warcraft, it gets a facelift or a rewrite. So take the 50% of abilities, feats and spells that are considered less effective and boost them, without touching the 50% that works reasonably well. This alone means a huge vitamin injection in that lots of formerly dismissed choices again become viable (to more players than those that don't care about efficiency).

Resist the urge to put a personal stamp on your edition. Don't add new stuff at the same time you're rebalancing the existing game!

As the DM I need much less out of an AD&D system than the players. Monsters designed with the actual abilities of player characters in mind. Utility-based magic pricing. These are the two big ones, and I've mentioned those already.

 

[Guy Icognito]

Kay, so 5th ed is probably already more complicated than any other currently RPG on the market but Paizo’s. Small upgrades needed. Cause most people want a less complex game already, we’re talking indie product here. Rejiggering every class probably won’t work as that’s too much writing and balancing to really test. Releasing a 5th ed variant that is “5e but more broken” won’t work.

The big places it needs more complexity is actions each round and levelling up.


Assuming a grid is step 1. Complexity and minis go together. Expanding the rules for using miniatures helps. Added rules for facing plus flanking (attacking from the sides) and attacking from the rear adds complexity. On each of your turns you’re not just moving, but choosing which way to face.
There could be other limits. Like not being able to make attacks of opportunity on enemies behind your and turning to face enemies on your side when you AoO.

Adding actions you can take each round can help. Like a fighting stance. Are you fighting aggressively or defensively or neutrally. Each round you tweak your AC/ attack as needed, giving you more options each turn.

Codifying maneuvers also adds options. These could be used in place of an attack when able to make multiple attacks. This adds them to the ranger and paladin as well or any class that have the Extra Attack feature. Instead of attacking twice you attack and disarm or attack and


But I think most gamers just want more. More alternate class options. More options each level. More choice to customize. That isn’t really advanced 5th ed tho, just… more. Wizards sounds like they’re already doing that for the fall.
To make that more advanced you’d wanna remember step 1 and make them really grid focused. Lots of 5 foot movement or shifting 1-2 squares. Look at 4th ed and it’s mobility powers.

To make it actually advanced you could completely overhaul the feat system. Add new class features at the ability score boost levels (4, 8, 12). Maybe ones focused on exploration. Instead allow players to just pick a feat every odd levels. Doubles the number of feats. Make each feat half as powerful and have pre-reqs and feat chains.
Needs feats that add actions as well. More attack options and powers.

Should also be rules to add feats to monsters. Like 2 feats boosts its CR by 1. This makes monsters more interesting as well.

 

[Eltab]

Features on the monsters and some inanimate objects that give you a reason to pick a slashing or bludgeoning or piercing weapon over the other options.

Remember when skeletons took lots of damage from hammers / maces but almost nothing from arrows?

For some weapons you can pick either of two damage types for your attack. A big sword can slash (sharp edge) or pierce (pointy end); a geologists hammer can bludgeon (hammer) or pierce (pickaxe). And that big two-handed double-ended orcish intimidator can do your choice of the three.

 

[Talltomwright]

I miss the evil of customization of 2e proficiencies. (You can read or swim or ride a horse but not all three, dammit!) So a way of bringing those back into 5e would be great.

edit: detail not evil. Grrr predictive text and large thumbs.

 

[DeviousQuail]

Adding to my thoughts from earlier, I'd be okay with keeping the 20 level structure of classes but open character development to level 30. Then add in prestige/racial/ancestry classes made up of 5 levels each. You could make vampire, werewolf, and other concepts that are too powerful as a race able to play right alongside normal classes. Also, all those character ideas that probably aren't worth making an entire class for now have a template.

 

[Lylandra]

A meaningful skill system with modular customization and variable attributes as default. Maybe a bit like PF2 with their degrees of expertise.

A class revamp/rebalancing (see "worst class" threads popping out every now and then)

Feats baked into the core system, not as a replacement for ASI

ASI dependent on character level, not class level

Cooperative benefits beyond Advantage

A fix to the "Perception problem"

Rules that reduce the RNG swinginess of 5e (people might disagree on this, but that's one of the major problems with 5e/bound accuracy for me)

 

[Quartz]

Variable/tiered Proficiency Bonus, not one bonus to rule them all, and in the homogeny bind them.

You mean like Expertise and Jack-of-Trades?

 

[cbwjm]

I'd like to remove ASI from subrace instead having a subrace grant only those thematic abilities for that subrace. Change the ASI for each race that currently has a +2/+1 to +2 in the score that the race is most known for (Con for dwarves, Dex for elves, Int for gnomes, etc) and then have 2 floating +1 ASIs. This should help free up race class combos where players feel they must choose X race or gimp their class as, with point buy, this allows every race to begin with a score of 16 in their main stat.

A more robust feat system that turns every feat into a half feat with some additional feats granted across levels (not sure how many over and above what are already granted, maybe only a couple more). This should hopefully provide players a lot more customisation of their PCs without feeling like they need to boost their main stat to 20 as soon as they can.

 

[DeviousQuail]

I'd like to remove ASI from subrace instead having a subrace grant only those thematic abilities for that subrace. Change the ASI for each race that currently has a +2/+1 to +2 in the score that the race is most known for (Con for dwarves, Dex for elves, Int for gnomes, etc) and then have 2 floating +1 ASIs. This should help free up race class combos where players feel they must choose X race or gimp their class as, with point buy, this allows every race to begin with a score of 16 in their main stat.

A more robust feat system that turns every feat into a half feat with some additional feats granted across levels (not sure how many over and above what are already granted, maybe only a couple more). This should hopefully provide players a lot more customisation of their PCs without feeling like they need to boost their main stat to 20 as soon as they can.

I think 13th Age did the ASI from race best. Each race would give you +2 to one of the two attributes associated with that race. Your class would give you +2 to one of the two attributes associated with the class. You can't choose the same for both.

For 5e a high elf wizard would give you +2 to Dex or Int and +2 to Int or Wis, but +4 to Int wouldn't be legal. I would use the Saving Throws for each class as their options with exceptions for classes like Monk (Dex/Wis) and Paladin (Str/Cha).

 

[Haldrik]

I think 13th Age did the ASI from race best.

I prefer something like 13A. But. Make it Background indirectly rather than the Species directly.

Each species comes with a set of Backgrounds that characterize the various cultural institutions that are prominent within the culture.

Each Background comes with a choice of one or two ability improvements. For example, I associate the Longsword with the High Elf. So there is one background for High Elf Sword Dancer military unit, with the option of Dexterity improvement, and gaining the ability to wield the longsword as a finesse weapon. Meanwhile, there is a separate Fey Knight military unit, known among both High Elf and Eladrin Elf, with the option of Intelligence improvement or Charisma improvement, and the ability to use Intelligence or Charisma to attack with the longsword, instead of Strength, and the ability to use the longsword as a spellcasting focus.

In short, it is the Backgrounds that grant the ability improvement. The Backgrounds define a culture of a species.

In this way, any species can gain any ability depending on choice of background and class. At the same time, it is still possible for "typical" members of a species to tend toward certain abilities because of the prominent backgrounds that they are more likely to come from.

Meanwhile the species itself becomes more diverse and fluid. For example, even if most Orcs are Tough (Strength and Constitution and heavy build), the member of a chieftain family or a religious family might have Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma to choose from for these Orc backgrounds.

If a species has more than one distinctive culture, then there are separate sets of cultural backgrounds.

The background focuses on the specific "job" within the culture, so avoids problems of racist generalizations.