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Level Up (A5E) [+] What features should a "Advanced 5E" have?

The above surprises me. The five senses as correlating with hit points? Constitution?

The five senses seem to overlap more with Intelligence with Perception<->Investigation. Detecting something includes recognizing what one is looking at, and making sense of it.

Or Dexterity, initiative checks, dodging, and precision.



Ultimately, what matters is the actual use during a game. One either notices something or not. Hence it is one check whether Perception or Investigation or Anticipation or Initiative to notice something coming. One check. One ability.
wait why are ya quoting me, I didn't say that.
 

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Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
The above surprises me. The five senses as correlating with hit points? Constitution?

The five senses seem to overlap more with Intelligence with Perception<->Investigation. Detecting something includes recognizing what one is looking at, and making sense of it.

Organ health.
Almost everything biological in D&D because the brain and muscles are correlated to Constitution.
But an argument could be made for Intelligence as well.
 


CapnZapp

Legend
(If you're not interested in the concept of an Advanced 5E, this thread isn't for you. Move along. Nothing to see here!)

I used "Advanced" just because AD&D did. That doesn't mean better, but it sounds better than "Crunchy 5E". The working title I have in mind is the '6th World System'.

If you ARE interested in the idea of an Advanced 5E - 5E with a bit more crunch - what features would you want to see in it?

Asking for a friend who is me who might make it.
There are a lot of ideas in this thread, some of them really good.

But most of them will result in a game that decidedly won't be recognizable as 5E.

Those I would file under "another game but not this one" if I were your friend.

Just a thought.
 

Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
I've thought a but more about my personal list, and this is what I came up with. This is just cherry picking some things that appeal to me personally.
  • 100% backwards compatibility with the 5E game you already have
  • A new Immortal tier (levels 20-30)
  • Fully developed exploration pillar, including journey rules
  • Flexible character options and development at every level
  • A new approach to your character's heritage
  • Martial maneuvers to add more depth to combat
  • A simple deadliness toggle to switch between Cinematic and Gritty playstyles
  • Varied weapons with a wide range of properties
  • A ranger without magic and a full warlord class
  • Followers and strongholds
 


CapnZapp

Legend
[*]Martial maneuvers to add more depth to combat
As something built into the warrior classes, or something built into the base game?

Asking because this can easily make the game come across as "not 5E". I really think a player needs to be able to bring his Champion 5E Fighter into this game without having to use maneuvers, not for the game to be good, but for it to claim 5E compatibility.

I'd make it an optional system (like how you can turn feats and multiclassing on and off) if not making it a part of the Rangers, Fighters, and Barbarians of this game.

Br, z
 

I've thought a but more about my personal list, and this is what I came up with. This is just cherry picking some things that appeal to me personally.
  • 100% backwards compatibility with the 5E game you already have
  • A new Immortal tier (levels 20-30)
  • Fully developed exploration pillar, including journey rules
  • Flexible character options and development at every level
  • A new approach to your character's heritage
  • Martial maneuvers to add more depth to combat
  • A simple deadliness toggle to switch between Cinematic and Gritty playstyles
  • Varied weapons with a wide range of properties
  • A ranger without magic and a full warlord class
  • Followers and strongholds
Almost a first edition feel isn't it?
Sometimes, I wonder if playing 1ed with the stats, save and AC calculations of 5ed would not be better...
 

CapnZapp

Legend
As for the Immortal tier, strongly consider the existing game's sparse support of levels 15-20.

To be entirely frank, you could probably move most of the existing high level class abilities down into levels 11-15, and then place all your ideas into the newly emptied levels.

Basically, renaming the fourth tier "Immortal".

That would restore some badly needed "exponentiality" to the upper levels. Where each level keep mattering. Most if not all epic level rules I've seen over the years doesn't achieve much more than ending up with fifteen sparse levels instead of just five.

The fact this would break compatibility with existing tier IV material is in theory a big problem. In practice, there is a negligible amount of official material that would be affected. I really think the benefits would massively overshadow the drawbacks.
 

schneeland

Explorer
Like @CapnZapp said on page 5, one main thing I would be looking for is meaningful choices for level-ups, at least for each tier of play (which would, as a result, require some extensions of the range of mechanics players have access to at certain points in the progression).

Other than that:
  • One key thing would be a more nuanced skill system than the one that 5e has (we don't need to go all the way back to 3e, but the 5e system doesn't cut the deal for me)
  • Similarly, a good system with more nuance to situational modifiers (again, no need to go back fully to 3e, but more fine-grained than advantage/disadvantage)
  • Somewhat extended rules for investigative and social scenarios as well as exploration
  • Options for a low(er) fantasy version of play
Regarding compatibility, strict adherence to 5e compatibility would not be required for me. It just needs to be easy enough to convert stuff.

Also, don't be afraid to throw out stuff. The main reason for me would be more meaningful choices, not a plethora of options of which 90% are redundant or crap (I'm looking at you, plethora of 3e books).
I personally would welcome a revision of abilities, but I get that for some people it's important that we stay with the classic 6.

Finally, as someone already mentioned in the beginning, I would love to see better structure and a more concise text.
 
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Lylandra

Adventurer
We explicitly legalized the metric system in 1866, thanks. It's currently still illegal to sell draught beer and cider in metric units in the UK.

So, you know, when y'all have finally caught up to the U.S. on legally allowing universal use of the metric system, maybe you should adopt Rebel English. Y'all went and converted from 1,000,000,000 being "one thousand million" to the American name "one billion" back in 1975, so it's a process you have familiarity with. :cool:
And you confuse all Germans learning English with this nonsense, as our Billion is 1.000.000.000.000 (and yes, we use points to separate the digits and commas for decimals.)

on a second note, y'all won't have to bother with the 6' problem in metric :D
 

Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
So as you probably guessed, we are going ahead with this. We've had it on the cards (in concept form) for over a year, and it's time to light a fire under it.

We are only just starting work on it, and we plan to recruit an elite team of diverse 5E designers to work on it over the coming year, along with public play tests and feedback, the whole works.

To that end, we're putting out the initial publicity stuff now -- just a mailing list and a Kickstarter notification signup. That way we can keep people notified about playtests, surveys, and other news.

Kickstarter register:

Mailing list:

Now, I want to reiterate this is very early stages. We want folks to be engaged, which is why we're gathering interest at this stage. There's a lot of work ahead of us - recruiting the team, and creating our 'list' for the project, which threads like this will help us do. We'll put out a survey on that topic soonish, so sign up to the mailing list for that one.
 

vincegetorix

Jewel of the North
So as you probably guessed, we are going ahead with this. We've had it on the cards (in concept form) for over a year, and it's time to light a fire under it.

We are only just starting work on it, and we plan to recruit an elite team of diverse 5E designers to work on it over the coming year, along with public play tests and feedback, the whole works.

To that end, we're putting out the initial publicity stuff now -- just a mailing list and a Kickstarter notification signup. That way we can keep people notified about playtests, surveys, and other news.

Kickstarter register:

Mailing list:

Now, I want to reiterate this is very early stages. We want folks to be engaged, which is why we're gathering interest at this stage. There's a lot of work ahead of us - recruiting the team, and creating our 'list' for the project, which threads like this will help us do. We'll put out a survey on that topic soonish, so sign up to the mailing list for that one.

This had me giggling like a schoolgirl in my living room this morning!

I'm so thrilled by this.

EDIT: will the features be playtested here? Like in a dedicated sub-forum or something?
 

Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
This had me giggling like a schoolgirl in my living room this morning!

I'm so thrilled by this.

EDIT: will the features be playtested here? Like in a dedicated sub-forum or something?
It will be similar to the way WotC or Paizo does it - -playtest packets focusing on specific things, with follow-up surveys. Definitely be on the mailing list for those!
 

akr71

Adventurer
1. De-coupling genetic/ancestry attributes from cultural attributes. Sure, all dwarves may have darkvision and resistance to poison, but why would a dwarf automatically know anything about stone or building. Same goes for elves and their automatic weapon proficiencies.

2. How about a third tier of weapon proficiencies. Call it 'militia weapons' - simple weapons would be the ones that deal d4, militia do d6 and martial deal d8. There would be some other adjustments for heavy and versatile weapons.

3. Have choosing to carry a weapon mean something. Weather that is weapon specialization or a feat, have something mechanical that makes a battle axe different from a long sword.

4. Skills. More of them and a way to get better at them.
 


CapnZapp

Legend
Clearly broadcasting the specific design goals will be critical to a product such as this one. "Advanced 5e" means completely different things to different people.

How important is 5e compatibility? What does "compatibility" mean in this context (to the dev team)? Being able to use 5e adventures is one thing; being able to multiclass freely between 5e and a5e classes would be a completely different thing. For possibly the first time, the online element needs to be central: how easy would it be to use a5e characters in a roll20 or fantasy grounds campaign?

Focus on new stuff or focus on upgrading existing stuff? Will there be a "Fighter" class intended to replace the 5e Fighter, or will there be, say, a "Warrior" class intended to supplement the 5e Fighter?

"upgrading" can mean different things. For a spell, it can mean making a poor/weak spell a contender again, buffing it to be on par with a good spell of the same level. That's an example of a small tweak. On the other hand, for a class, it can mean completely ripping out the guts of, say the warlock or sorcerer class, reassembling its constituent parts to enable many more archetypal characters. That's an example of a bigger tweak. Yet another form of upgrading would be to take a cue from PF2 and make monsters more fearsome. (Presumably the A5E monster book can assume "options on" games, including feats, and whatever stuff the game adds. The 5E Monster Manual suffers from being written with an options-off assumption that makes its critters too easy to overcome by any group except those running without feats, m/c, items or an appreciable amount of powergaming)

Is the focus on taking the game in a new direction? Or more conservatively, bringing better support for, say, 3E (or OD&D etc) concepts that 5E let fall by the wayside (for Paizo to pick up the pieces)? Or even more conservatively, just focusing on what 5E already offers, but adding more crunch - in the "spirit" of 5E (without putting a "personal touch" on the new content).

An example of expanding the game would be followers or strongholds. But that's stuff that likely could be used for 5e itself. If any such supplementary material is planned, what is the reason for tying it to this specific product? (What does strongholds have to do with A5E? Why does it need to be in the A5E rules as opposed to a general 5E supplement?)

At this stage the answers aren't important. I'm supplying questions, not asking for answers.
 
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ardoughter

Adventurer
Supporter
First of al I would want the system to be compatible with 5.0 as for what I would like:
Open up some option in the skills area, particularly out of combat.
I think that the number and way of doing skills is ok but I would like some strong DM advice ( for those that do not play outside D&D sandbox) on "Fail Forward", "Yes, but" and "Fail = Success with complications".
I would like to see a return of action points. Win action points for say difficult successes or criticals and spend them for inspiration or accumulate a few and spend for an action surge.
Prestige classes, perhaps as a feat harness.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
Got another one.

Fluency rules
  • Giving PCs levels of fluency (non-fluent, elementary, limited working, professional, native).
  • Choosing native languages
  • Separating read, write,and listen
  • Having accents
  • Having dialects
  • Using idioms and figured of speech
  • Adjustments of social spells (comprehend language, tongues, speak with X)
 

A ranger without magic and a full warlord class
I think of these as:

Skirmisher (light armor) − athletic stunts, grappling, unarmed combat, speed
− nonmagic ranger archetype
− nonmagic monk martial artist archetype
− possibly magic archetypes

Knight (heavy armor) − formal military education, heavy weapons, tactics, history/culture, deception/trickery, morale, persuasion, intimidation, empathy
− nonmagic warlord, inspiration to restore nonzero hit points
− "lazylord" via granting actions to allies, by setting up, coaching to call attention to openings
− possibly magic archetypes (≈ Paladin, Eldritch Knight, etc.)
 
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