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Level Up (A5E) [+] What features should a "Advanced 5E" have?

DeviousQuail

Explorer
Call me old-fashioned, but a game without the six stats isn't D&D to me. Doesn't mean it wouldn't be a good game though.
They are certainly one of the most sacred cows in d&d. It's a shame, too. So much starts with them and not being able to change means you'll always have to design with them in mind.
 

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Note:

• Tough
• Athletic
• Perceptive
• Social

These four are really the traditional saving throws. These work so much better as the actual abilities!

• Fortitude
• Reflex
• Perception (save versus invisibility, stealth, subtlety, illusion, forgery, deception, etcetera)
• Will



So these three+one are old school D&D. But even better.
 

Well then try make the six: crystal clear, mutually exclusive, and balanced with each other.

I gave up a long time ago.

I am happier with other ability systems that make more sense and work better.
I see that. I just don't want D&D to be contorted into one of those systems. Let D&D be D&D, and let other games be other games. I'm all for innovation, I just think you change the stats that much, it stops being D&D.
 

I see that. I just don't want D&D to be contorted into one of those systems. Let D&D be D&D, and let other games be other games. I'm all for innovation, I just think you change the stats that much, it stops being D&D.
Maybe it is possible to compromise

TOUGH/FORTITUDE
• Strength (size, damage bonus)
• Constitution (health, hit points)

ATHLETIC/REFLEX
• Athletics (speed, run, jump, climb, balance, tumble, fall, swim)
• Melee (melee attack bonus, grappling, dodge, throw attack bonus)

PERCEPTIVE/PERCEPTION
• Dexterity (senses, steady hand, missile attack bonus)
• Intelligence (lore, deception)

SOCIAL/WILL
• Charisma (empathy, persuasion, fear-mongering, entertaining)
• Wisdom (willpower, sanity)

In this sense, one is really adding two abilities to the six. The default can be 4. But optionally a player might prefer to divide the four into eight by giving each bifurcation its own score.
 
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Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
Well then try make the six: crystal clear, mutually exclusive, and balanced with each other.

It's really not hard to do so.
The issue it seem is that personal biases and preferences always causes defining the 6 ability scores and balancing them into a afterthought.

If ability rolls are the most important rolls, you must design what they are and are for BEFORE you start thinking about races, classes, skills and spells. But it is always the other way around.

One the 4e did right was define what the ability scores were and how they could be used. 4e scores were the most balanced of all editions.
 
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It's really not hard to do so.
The issue it seem is that personal biases and preferences always causes defining the 6 ability scores and balancing them into a afterthought.

If ability rolls are the most important rolls, you must design what they are and are for BEFORE you start thinking about races, classes, skills and spells. But it is always the other way around.

One the 4e did right was define what the ability scores were and how they could be used. 4e scores were the most balanced of all editions.
But even 4e abilities were a bit klugy, again because of being shackled to a problematic sacred cow.
 

Hmmm. "Sacred cow" is really an insult to certain Hindu traditions.

I was about to say "fetish", but it isnt much better.

I guess there is a "fixation" with a certain problematic six abilities.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
But even 4e abilities were a bit klugy, again because of being shackled to a problematic sacred cow.

I said it was the best. It was in no way near perfect. Itwasjust good. Not even very good.

I find 5e's not following and improving on 4e as a matter of being afraid to bite the bullet. Abilities and Skills should have been decoupled completely by default and not made that into a houserule.


For example, moving will save to Charisma helped, but Charisma should have had empathy (insight) to read people too.

Nope.
Reading people isn't Charisma. Charisma is personality, confidence, and eloquence. You can't push someone mentally to read them without intimidation or deception which are active skills.
Insight is a inactive or defensive skill. Charisma is outward not inward. Charisma is only used defensively when someone is trying to override your personality.

That's kinda my point. The first time you see ability scores described in 5e, it's less than half a page.
Then you don't see them again for over 150 more pages.
What the heck?
 


The abilities are the deepest structure of the gaming system. Almost every mechanic in the game depends on the abilities, directly and indirectly.

But the abilities themselves are such a mess.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
Every reallife charismatic person can read people.

To separate people-reading from Charisma, is as idiotic as separating climbing from balance. Oh, wait! Idiotic!

The six abilities are highly problematic.

No. Many Charismatic people also have Wisdom.
Many Charismatic people also don't have high Wisdom.
I know Charismatic people who are as perceptive as a brick. All too well.

The stereotypical pretty moron has high Charisma but is easily fooled (low Wis) and can't process info (low Int).

The Six ability scores work.
 

No. Many Charismatic people also have Wisdom.
Many Charismatic people also don't have high Wisdom.
I know Charismatic people who are as perceptive as a brick. All too well.

The stereotypical pretty moron has high Charisma but is easily fooled (low Wis) and can't process info (low Int).

The Six ability scores work.
rolleyes



First of all, social skills, and "emotional intelligence", inherently requires both.

If not, it is like being an excellent pitcher who is blind.
 

Speaking of idiotic.

The Wisdom ability is idiotic.

Having good eyesight has zero relationship to having strong willpower. Utterly unrelated.

Did you know 5e hawks and panthers are "wiser" than humans?

And none of it actually has to do with reallife "wisdom", which is expertise, or intuition and discernment, more like Investigation, or Lore checks.
 
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Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
rolleyes
First of all, social skills, and "emotional intelligence", inherently requires both.

If not, it is like being an excellent pitcher who is blind.

No, it is like being an excellent fastball pitcher who can't get the catcher's signals and gets bases stolen on him all the time.

It's game mechanics. That's why we have skills. You can have proficiency with Intimidation with low Charisma and proficiency with Insight with low Wisdom.

Speaking of idiotic.

The Wisdom ability is idiotic.

Having good eyesight has zero relationship to having strong willpower. Utterly unrelated.

Did you know 5e bats and deer are "wiser" than humans?

And none of it actually has to do with reallife "wisdom", which is expertise, or intuition and discernment, more like Investigation, or Lore checks.

Yes, in D&D senses bats and deer are wiser than humans. Thy have more acute senses and better intution than humans. They are also too stupid or skittish to leverage their their wisdom.

Wisdom reflects how attuned you are to the world around you and represents perceptiveness and intuition.


Charisma measures your ability to interact effectively with others. It includes such factors as confidence and eloquence, and it can represent a charming or commanding personality.


Your issues is the words Wisdom and Charisma. Its a poor word choice. But what it is makes sense.

If done today they would be Perception/Senses and Personality/Confidence
 

Being "eloquent" means knowing ones audience! Reading people. Otherwise, one can come across as "tone-deaf" or inappropriate.

If done today they would be Perception/Senses and Personality/Confidence

At least here you seem to admit, the abilities need to change. At least the names need to change to help them make more sense.

But social perceptions have zero to do with sensory perceptions. Completely unrelated abilities. I have a blind friend who in fact happens to be emotionally intelligent. There is zero relationship between physical senses and empathic social skills. Zero.

D&D six abilities are. Wrong.

Also imbalanced.
 

I feel like this is one of those conversations that is going to go nowhere and it is going to get there at the speed of light, due to one or more of the people involved, so lets move on, yes?

Well Advanced is in the title, so I think making it more Advanced (read:complicated) might be in order, especially since there is a small, but still significant, group of people wanting more to bite into in 5e. I don't really know how to do that than just adding more numbers and even then that just feels like it's missing the point of an Advanced version.

It could just be a fighting game style new version where they just change stuff around based on the feedback they got. (which, is technically happening if they keep on with the alternate class features thing they've been talking about for the past year)
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
Being "eloquent" means knowing ones audience! Reading people. Otherwise, one can come across as "tone-deaf" or inappropriate.



At least here you seem to admit, the abilities need to change. At least the names need to change to help them make more sense.

But social perceptions have zero to do with sensory perceptions. Completely unrelated abilities. I have a blind friend who in fact happens to be emotionally intelligent. There is zero relationship between physical senses and empathic social skills. Zero.

D&D six abilities are. Wrong.

Also imbalanced.
actually....
eloquent
adjective
Definition of eloquent
1 : marked by forceful and fluent expression
an eloquent preacher

2 : vividly or movingly expressive or revealing
an eloquent monument


Eloquence is projecting personality not observing them.


But you are right about one thing. Social perceptions have zero to do with sensory perceptions. Same with full body agility and finger based dexterity.
That's why I keep saying Skills should not be tied to Ability.

Sensory Perception should be a Perception (Constitution) check.

If anything, D&D needs more ability scores. And that would be a good module.
However balancing 4 or 8 abilities would be twice as hard as doing so with 6. And people are confused as is.
 

Sensory Perception should be a Perception (Constitution) check.

The above surprises me. The five senses as correlating with hit points? Constitution?

The five senses seem to overlap more with Intelligence with Perception<->Investigation. Detecting something includes recognizing what one is looking at, and making sense of it.

Or Dexterity, initiative checks, dodging, and precision.



Ultimately, what matters is the actual use during a game. One either notices something or not. Hence it is one check whether Perception or Investigation or Anticipation or Initiative to notice something coming. One check. One ability.
 

see

Explorer
If the Rebels are wanting to adopt the metric system, they're going to have to adopt the Queen's English i.e. metre
We explicitly legalized the metric system in 1866, thanks. It's currently still illegal to sell draught beer and cider in metric units in the UK.

So, you know, when y'all have finally caught up to the U.S. on legally allowing universal use of the metric system, maybe you should adopt Rebel English. Y'all went and converted from 1,000,000,000 being "one thousand million" to the American name "one billion" back in 1975, so it's a process you have familiarity with. :cool:
 

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