D&D 5E Suggestion: Broken?

[Dausuul]

As a caster player, one way I judge the power level of a spell is to consider what level that spell would have to be before I would say "Nope, not taking it." I would certainly still take suggestion at 3rd, and probably even at 4th. At 2nd, it's just a no-brainer. So, yeah, I tend to agree that suggestion is too good for its level.

I'd be tempted to change suggestion to work as follows:

• Reduce it to 1st level.
• The wording does not matter.
• If the creature knows that the suggested course of action is contrary to its own interests, it can ignore the suggestion.
• You can use your action on each subsequent round to suggest a different course of action, until you present one which the target does not recognize as against its interests (or accepts anyway).
• Once a suggestion is accepted, you can't change it.

Thus, if the aboleth doesn't have any real reason to attack you (it's just annoyed or spiteful), telling it to f*** off is legit. But if it does have a reason to attack, it can say "Nope, not gonna do that," and you've wasted your round and have to try again. The idea is to make it a spell of subtle manipulation instead of raw mind control.

Charm Person: Charm effect, wis save (with advantage in combat), first level, one hour, considers the caster a trusted friend, breaks if attacked

Just a note, "trusted friend" is wording from previous editions. 5E has downgraded charm person's effect to "friendly acquaintance." The spell's primary value now is that it applies the Charmed condition, which means you have advantage on checks for social interactions (e.g., Persuasion or Deception), and the creature can't attack you or target you with harmful effects.

 

[Hexmage-EN]

Just curious, would you even bat an eye if he had suggested to a goblin To F off?

Yep. The text of the spell says it has to be a "reasonable" course of action. If the goblin was about to attack and thinks it can take on the caster why would it think the Suggestion to "naughty word off" is "reasonable"?

Also I wouldn't allow "naughty word off" as the Suggestion in the first place because it's too vague. Something like "go get some rest so you'll have a better chance at winning later" is better.

 

[FrogReaver]

Yep. The text of the spell says it has to be a "reasonable" course of action. If the goblin was about to attack and thinks it can take on the caster why would it think the Suggestion to "naughty word off" is "reasonable"?

Also I wouldn't allow "naughty word off" as the Suggestion in the first place because it's too vague. Something like "go get some rest so you'll have a better chance at winning later" is better.

so the spell should be so weak that it can’t prevent a goblin from engaging in combat...

so I’ll ask a different question - exactly what of use can suggestion be used for?

 

[amethal]

Yep. The text of the spell says it has to be a "reasonable" course of action. If the goblin was about to attack and thinks it can take on the caster why would it think the Suggestion to "naughty word off" is "reasonable"?

Also I wouldn't allow "naughty word off" as the Suggestion in the first place because it's too vague. Something like "go get some rest so you'll have a better chance at winning later" is better.

Only in D&D land would a suggestion that two groups of strangers NOT fight each other to the death be viewed as unreasonable.

Probably not even in D&D land would a suggestion to "naughty word off" receive the response of "I'm sorry, could you be a bit more more specific?"

If they were having an actual conversation I might decide that an aboleth wouldn't understand the concept (I'm blissfully ignorant of the aboleth reproductive cycle) but telepathy would presumably reflect the intent behind the phrase rather than the literal meaning of the actual words used.

 

[FrogReaver]

As for the yuan ti and their suggestions I’d recommend them having the mindset that their suggestions are basically infinite and thus that they use it that ability for more immediate needs.

Yuan ti might suggest you atack it’s less injured ally. or that you retreat 100ft away from it. Etc.

 

[Hexmage-EN]

so the spell should be so weak that it can’t prevent a goblin from engaging in combat...

so I’ll ask a different question - exactly what of use can suggestion be used for?

After thinking on it for a bit, it'd probably be best put to use in an intrigue-style campaign where the party keeps tabs on different NPCs. A caster with Suggestion should know some details about their intended target and tailor Suggestions to that target.

For example, "Seek refuge all night in your home, it's not safe to be out tonight" would be reasonable to someone who lives nearby but unreasonable to someone whose home is several villages over. For the latter individual the Suggestion "Seek refuge all night wherever you can find it" would be better. Even in these situations it might be necessary to convince the target before casting that it really is unsafe to be out (the primary benefit of the Suggestion spell being that it can ensure the affected doesn't change their mind later for some reason and go outside after all).

In combat, the spell's effectiveness will often depend on whether the intended target believes it can win.

I realize this makes Suggestion little better than various Charisma checks, but I guess Suggestion is to Persuasion as Knock is to using Thieves' Tools.

 

[Dausuul]

Just curious, would you even bat an eye if he had suggested to a goblin To F off?

This is irrelevant. An OP spell does not become less OP just because you can choose to waste it on a pathetically weak target.

 

[MarkB]

Probably not even in D&D land would a suggestion to "naughty word off" receive the response of "I'm sorry, could you be a bit more more specific?"

I feel like this clip has been approaching ever since this thread started, and at this point it is inevitable.

NSFW language, of course.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Ah, the eternal debate of Suggestion. What does it mean for something to "sound reasonable"?

In this instance, if the party are of reasonably high level and a potential threat to the aboleth, isn't it a fairly reasonable course of action for it to retreat and put some distance between itself and them, and then try to neutralise them using less direct means?

No. "F.... off" is never a reasonable suggestion. Actually it is not a suggestion at all.

 

[Flamestrike]

Suggestion should not work this way. The suggestion needs to at least sound reasonable to work.

'Retreat to your lair and leave this to your minions' seems reasonable to me.

Which is how I interpret 'f**k off'