D&D 5E Reconciling the different Magic the Gathering and Dungeons & Dragons Cosmologies

Urriak Uruk

Gaming is fun, and fun is for everyone
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Hi everyone! So with the recent announcement that Magic the Gathering will be releasing a Forgotten Realms themed set of cards in 2021, it looks like the integration of the different worlds of Magic the Gathering and Dungeons & Dragons continues.

Note: Yes this thread is technically about what the "canon" cosmology is, but D&D canon is just the default assumption of people's games. The DMG makes it clear you can throw that assumption away in your own game. That means any debate about people using the "wrong" cosmology is silly, as there is no wrong way to play D&D. But this thread is about that default assumption of cosmology now that MtG and D&D are more closely connected.

Now, there is actually very little content that mentions the connection between MTG and D&D. Both the setting books for Ravnica and Theros don't mention the cosmology beyond that affecting their own planes, and no other D&D book mentions the planes of MTG except for Acquisitions Inc, which just confirms travel between the worlds of D&D and MTG is possible (but does not explain how). The best explanation of cosmology for 5E is from this Crawford interview;


Now the focus here is largely on Eberron on actually doesn't address many of the unique cosmological elements behind MTG worlds, but there are some important takeaways here.

1. The Material Plane contains a multitude, and essentially infinite, number of worlds. Unlike the Outer Planes which have certain rules, a world on the Material Plane can be completely different than another (or nearly identical).
2. Smaller cosmologies can fit within the Material Plane; the example of Eberron is used, with its Orrery cosmology actually still within the Material Plane.
3. Although the Great Wheel cosmology applies to all worlds within the Material Plane, a world within the Material Plane can be cut off from the Great Wheel, making travel to and from specific worlds extremely difficult. Again Eberron is used as an example here; traveling to and from Eberron is extremely difficult, and explains why nearly all Eberron residents are unaware of worlds beyond their own.

There! So those are actually some pretty big rules, and on their own explain most of how Ravnica and Theros work within D&D. Theros specifically has its own unique cosmology, but it stands to reason that the gods of Theros purposefully cut off their world to avoid the gods of the Outer Planes interfering in their affairs. Why Ravnica would be cutoff is less clear, though there are extremely powerful individuals like demons, sphinxes and dragons that could be responsible.

The last piece of note is the two primary means of planar travel; the planeshift spell in the case of D&D, and planeswalking in the case of MTG. For the former, I would argue that the planeshift spell would technically work for worlds cut off from the Great Wheel, but that due to them being cut off, the material needed to actually plansehift to another plane of existence would be extremely rare, and therefore extremely expensive. In the case of Planeswalking, this form of travel is able to bypass any barriers set up between worlds, but of course the limiter here is that only one in a million people have a planeswalking spark (and even fewer ever have it ignite).

So let's now establish for example, how a world like Theros works in practice, within D&D cosmology. The world begins to form its gods (Theros gods are largely created by the belief of mortals). These gods do some sort of spell or ritual to cut off Theros from the Great Wheel, to remove the competition of external forces like those of the Abyss of Mt Celestia. Once this barrier is set up, there is only one way in and out of Theros, Planeswalkers. Now, a Planeswalker could technically travel with a rod of metal from the Plane of Fire, leaving it behind and allowing a Theros wizard to use the plane shift spell to travel there with the material component. But this situation is highly unlikely; the wizard would have had to invent the plane shift spell, or been taught it from said Planeswalker. A similar network of communication and trade would need to be set up for teleportation circles and Sigil sequences to other worlds. Both a technically possible, but rely on a willing Planeswalker to set up the connection. Add that the gods of Theros are likely to act against any such connection being set up, and you have your reasoning for why planar travel to and from Theros is nearly impossible for non-Planeswalkers.

The reasoning for Theros is pretty clear; for other MTG worlds, it is less so. But here are some "rules" that every MTG world likely has, making the lack of connection to the Great Wheel more obvious;

1. Some force, either an individual, a group, or even something incidental or of the natural order, has cutoff this world from the Great Wheel (likely a barrier, much like Eberron).
2. The barrier is able to block almost all travel to and from the world, like Spelljammers, but Planeswalkers are able to bypass this block easily.
3. There are forces within the world who want to maintain the barrier, or keep connections to other worlds at a minimum. They work to thwart any attempts at material components from other worlds being traded, or the building of teleportation circles.

In my opinion, I think it is more fun to imagine each MTG world having its own unique circumstances for the above three points. However, if you need consistency, perhaps it is the same group enforcing these for some reason of your own; perhaps it is the gods of the Outer Planes themselves who purposefully cut of the worlds of MTG!

Anyway, discuss below, and please throw the criticism at me of points I probably missed. I could have gone into more details (like, can someone born in Eberron become a Planeswalker) but didn't want the first post to become too long.
 

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I personally greatly dislike 5E's default position that the Great Wheel is the one true cosmology and its gods the true gods, reducing all other gods and cosmologies into being veils that hide the truth of the Great Wheel from ignorant mortals. Even 4E didn't force all the campaign settings into the same cosmology with the same gods.

I'm not a big fan of the Forgotten Realms, but from what I understand Ao is the Overgod of that setting, right? The one who once forced the other gods recognized in the Forgotten Realms out of their home planes to walk Toril? Is he also the Overgod of the D&D Multiverse, or is his authority limited to only the Material Plane of the Forgotten Realms? What of the gods like Lolth who were forced to manifest on Toril during the Time of Troubles? Was she trapped on Toril and unable to affect any other world for a time? If Ao is only all powerful in the Material Plane of the Realms why do the gods bother with a single world dominated by someone who outclasses them when they could go elsewhere?

For a more recent example, if all Material Planes share the same Feywild and Shadowfell why does the Raven Queen of Exandria not resemble the Raven Queen described in Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes in the slightest? Does accessing the Shadowfell from Exandria alter how people perceive the Raven Queen and her realm, or what?

I don't see the value in insisting that there's one true cosmology and set of beings in the planes in a game where a given DM's campaign could end with Tiamat or Demogorgon destroyed or some other major shake-up that would affect the entire multiverse.
 
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Urriak Uruk

Gaming is fun, and fun is for everyone
I'm not a big fan of the Forgotten Realms, but from what I understand Ao is the Overgod of that setting, right? The one who once forced the other gods recognized in the Forgotten Realms out of their home planes to walk Toril? Is he also the Overgod of the D&D Multiverse, or is his authority limited to only the Material Plane of the Forgotten Realms? What of the gods like Lolth who were forced to manifest on Toril during the Time of Troubles? Was she trapped on Toril and unable to affect any other world for a time? If Ao is only all powerful in the Material Plane of the Realms why do the gods bother with a single world dominated by someone who outclasses them when they could go elsewhere?

For a more recent example, if all Material Planes share the same Feywild and Shadowfell why does the Raven Queen of Exandria not resemble the Raven Queen described in Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes in the slightest? Does accessing the Shadowfell from Exandria alter how people perceive the Raven Queen and her realm, or what?

Good questions! They don't all have clear answers, but I'll do my best.

Ao is indeed the Overgod of Forgotten Realms, but he is only the overgod of FR, nowhere else in the Material Plane. He has no influence in Greyhawk, Eberron, or any other world on the Material Plane.

In the case of Lolth, it looks like during the Time of Troubles she did manifest on Toril... it is unclear if she was truly trapped there. I would say no, but that Lolth was unable to influence Toril specifically anymore than her mortal manifestation there. I think she probably maintained he true form back in the Abyss concurrently.
I hesitate to comment too much on the cosmology on any time period based before 5E, as how the cosmology works then would be different to the new assumption.

As to why a god like Bane would bother with Toril when they are outclassed, I would say the biggest explanation is that it is hard to start a new church, from scratch, on another world. Gods need followers, and moving from one to another can be difficult. Some gods manage it, like Tiamat and Bahamut, others can't.

And yes, I do believe that based on what world you live on impacts how you perceive gods that appear on multiple worlds. So your Raven Queen example applies, but so does that of Tiamat who is also Takhisis in Dragonlance, and was even killed there. Despite literally losing her life on Dragonlance she continues to be worshiped on Toril and Exandria, and maintains her form on Avernus.
 

Mirtek

Hero
During 2e the official explanation of the time of troubles was that the multispheric deities were safe and sound in their respective realms. If they wanted to continue to maintain a divine link to Toril however, they had to send in a special avatar on the level of the mortal selfs the single spheric deities of Toril found themselves confined to. This avatar had to weather the ToT without anymore outside help from it's true essence back on the planes, just like the single spheric deities.

If such an avatar was slain, the respective deity lost her divine link to Toril, but was otherwise still alive. Unlike single spheric deities, who were as dead as a deity can be upon losing their avatars
 

dave2008

Legend
I apologize that I haven't read your post yet, but I discussed my own ideas back in March here: The Cosmology of the Wheel and the Aether

EDIT: After reading the OP, I think the biggest issue that should be addressed is the difference in planeswalking and typical D&D magic. Planeswalkers travel through the Blind Eternities (or Aether) were horrible monsters reside (eldrazi). The process can drive you mad even (IIRC). So to me, that sounds most like the Far Realm. So I think planeswalking uses the Far Realm to bypass space time. However, this is very dangerous and only those with sparks, natives of the Far Realm or possibly gods can do it. However, the further you have to "travel" in the Far Realm to get to another world / plane the more dangerous it is or possible impossible.
 
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Urriak Uruk

Gaming is fun, and fun is for everyone
I apologize that I haven't read your post yet, but I discussed my own ideas back in March here: The Cosmology of the Wheel and the Aether

I remember liking your post, but also just wanted to nail down an idea for a unified cosmology that made the fewest assumptions for how to meld the two. Meaning, I didn't want to make MTG worlds all clustered together in their own pocket. I don't feel like that's necessary to make it work, plus I know the MTG multiverse is described as "nearly infinite" and I didn't love the idea of clustering something nearly infinite together as separate as the remainder of the Material Plane which is also nearly infinite.

So this idea of mine just collects what has been said and tried to make an idea for how to make it work while changing very few assumptions.
 

Bitbrain

Lost in Dark Sun
I say let each setting have its own cosmology structure.

Let Forgotten Realms use the Great Wheel, Eberron the Orrery of the Planes (or whatever it’s called), and Dark Sun a version of the World Axis. Theros already has Nyx and the Underworld, I believe.
 

Urriak Uruk

Gaming is fun, and fun is for everyone
I say let each setting have its own cosmology structure.

Let Forgotten Realms use the Great Wheel, Eberron the Orrery of the Planes, and Dark Sun a version of the World Axis. Theros already has Nyx and the Underworld, I believe.

This is in practice how it already works, just that the Great Wheel enters the picture when someone from Toril tries to travel to Theros, or vice-versa. The Great Wheel is just a method for binding the settings under one umbrella if a party ever feels the urge for cross-setting planar travel. If they don't, then it is entirely unnecessary.
 

dave2008

Legend
I remember liking your post, but also just wanted to nail down an idea for a unified cosmology that made the fewest assumptions for how to meld the two. Meaning, I didn't want to make MTG worlds all clustered together in their own pocket. I don't feel like that's necessary to make it work, plus I know the MTG multiverse is described as "nearly infinite" and I didn't love the idea of clustering something nearly infinite together as separate as the remainder of the Material Plane which is also nearly infinite.

So this idea of mine just collects what has been said and tried to make an idea for how to make it work while changing very few assumptions.
The distance and clustering is just a graphic to understand the concept. The connective tissue (Far Realm, Blind Eternities, Aether) does behave like our space/time. Theros and Ravnica could be infinitely war apart, but closely connected by the Aether. Likewise, Theros could be adjacent to Toril, yet nearly impossible to get there through the Aether. Think of the graphic as explainig relative density of the Aether. The less dense, the greater connection, The greater the density the less connection. The graphic is representing density by distance, when really that is not the case.

PS Not sure if you caught my edit, see below. But I think, while elegant in its simplicity, your model fails to account for the difference in lore.

"EDIT: After reading the OP, I think the biggest issue that should be addressed is the difference in planeswalking and typical D&D magic. Planeswalkers travel through the Blind Eternities (or Aether) were horrible monsters reside (eldrazi). The process can drive you mad even (IIRC). So to me, that sounds most like the Far Realm. So I think planeswalking uses the Far Realm to bypass space time. However, this is very dangerous and only those with sparks, natives of the Far Realm or possibly gods can do it. However, the further you have to "travel" in the Far Realm to get to another world / plane the more dangerous it is or possible impossible."
 

Bitbrain

Lost in Dark Sun
This is in practice how it already works, just that the Great Wheel enters the picture when someone from Toril tries to travel to Theros, or vice-versa. The Great Wheel is just a method for binding the settings under one umbrella if a party ever feels the urge for cross-setting planar travel. If they don't, then it is entirely unnecessary.

My campaigns have featured cross planar travel from day 1.

When an NPC from the Forgotten Realms in my game traveled to Eberron, he exited the Great Wheel cosmology and entered the Orrery. If he had been from Ravnica, he would have exited the Blind Eternities (or whatever its name is).
 

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