D&D 5E Psionics in Tasha

[Crimson Longinus]

IMHO, 3e and 4e psionics were probably the best iteration. I don't mind that psionics are spells or magic, but I don't want psionics to just be subsumed by arcane magic. I want it to be more like divine cleric magic or primal druid magic, which both co-exist alongside arcane magic without people calling for the death of clerics and druids since sorcerers and wizards already exist.

Sure. Then again, these things change. Like I think primal being a separate from divine was a thing only in 4E. But but if you want them to be separate in your world's metaphysics, then they can. Rules really don't need to change. And do these things even need to be solidly defined? Perhaps the arguments about how to classify various supernatural powers actually is what's happening in the setting as well? Different scholars and traditions have their own classification methods. Wizards say that psions are just low class hedge-mages, psions think they're enlightened practitioners of a secret way that is beyond mere sorcery. And the clerics think that they both are heretics. There really doesn't even need to be one right answer.

 

[Aldarc]

Sure. Then again, these things change. Like I think primal being a separate from divine was a thing only in 4E. But but if you want them to be separate in your world's metaphysics, then they can. Rules really don't need to change. And do these things even need to be solidly defined? Perhaps the arguments about how to classify various supernatural powers actually is what's happening in the setting as well? Different scholars and traditions have their own classification methods. Wizards say that psions are just low class hedge-mages, psions think they're enlightened practitioners of a secret way that is beyond mere sorcery. And clerics think that they both are heretics. There really doesn't even need to be one right answer.

But I think that in order to be able to tell such stories, then I think that there should at least be a psion class such that a psionic themed class, spell list, and abilities that can stand on its own. I'm skeptical that just having a psionic-themed sorcerer really does the trick, as that just subsumes psionics within an arcane caster.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

But I think that in order to be able to tell such stories, then I think that there should at least be a psion class such that a psionic themed class, spell list, and abilities that can stand on its own. I'm skeptical that just having a psionic-themed sorcerer really does the trick, as that just subsumes psionics within an arcane caster.

Well, that kinda depends on how you see the classes. Like do the people in the setting really see psionic sorcerer and dragonic sorcerer to be same type of thing any more than they see a druid and bard to be the same. Now I fully get the sentiment of wanting the classes to be actual, coherent classifications that have some meaning in the setting too. I really want that, but that's not the only way to look at things. But yah, if we think that psionics is at least as different from arcane than arcane is from divine, then it is indeed a bit weird to have the psionics to be just tacked on as subclasses to arcane classes. Like there isn't some cleric subclass that suddenly becomes arcane caster. Then again, there is already the divine soul sorcerer...

 

[Aldarc]

Well, that kinda depends on how you see the classes. Like do the people in the setting really see psionic sorcerer and dragonic sorcerer to be same type of thing any more than they see a druid and bard to be the same. Now I fully get the sentiment of wanting the classes to be actual, coherent classifications that have some meaning in the setting too. I really want that, but that's not the only way to look at things. But yah, if we think that psionics is at least as different from arcane than arcane is from divine, then it is indeed a bit weird to have the psionics to be just tacked on as subclasses to arcane classes. Like there isn't some cleric subclass that suddenly becomes arcane caster. Then again, there is already the divine soul sorcerer...

But the divine soul sorcerer doesn't negate the existence of the cleric. In fact, it depends on it because its ability assumes an independent cleric spell list from which it can also draw divine spells.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

You think there aren't distinctions between Arcane and Divine magic in 3e and 4e?

3e is what literally gave us the terms "Arcane" and "Divine" when "Wizard" and "Priest" magic was generally used before that. When you read the spellcasting descriptions in a 3e class, it specifically enumerates if it's considered arcane or divine. . .and one hard mechanical difference between them is that divine spells don't suffer from Arcane Spell Failure for somatic components in armor. Also, Prestige Classes often specified if spellcasting for a prerequisite had to be Arcane or Divine in nature. . .Cleric or Druid spellcasting would never qualify you for Arcane Archer, and no amount of Wizard levels could qualify you to be a Heirophant.

4e went so far as to break down all classes into a "power source" and a role. . .with Arcane and Divine as two of the first and major "power sources".

Even though in 3.x divine and arcane was spellt out explicitely, in 2e they felt more distinct.
Even the spell with the same name could have slightly different effects depending on the caster (hold person/ daylight from memory). Also while initiative modifier for wizard spell was usually just level, for priest spells it was often level +3. Also the type of spells really differed. There were nearly no good damage spells (except for flamestrike and blade wall) while there simply was no helaing spell for wizards (or bards whose only cross class skill was healing on top), except for a setting specific 7th level spell named after a famous wizard.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Anyway, I'm interested seeing how they handle in Tasha's. One thing I hope that they make the sorcerer psion to me thematically a pure psion without the Lovecraftian influences (so psionic mind rather than aberrant mind.) This will let people who like the theme of psionics to play as close to pure psion than the current design paradigm allows. It also avoids overlap with warlock, who can keep the Lovecraftian stuff. To me the latter is very important.

Whilst I'm rather lukewarm about psionics in general, I'm still a bit exited about this. I really don't like the normal sorcerers (as I have said many times in other threads, I think the basic sorcerer fluff is better represented by warlock rules) but if the psionic sorcerer is decent then perhaps I could use those in my setting. If warlocks are creepy witches with wild eldritch powers and psion-sorcerers can be meditating mystics that tap the power of their mind, then that would feel pretty thematically clear and distinct. I also feel that sorcery point mechanic would be pretty decent representation of malleability of psionics; the powers are not just memorised rotes so the psion can control what they want to do better.

 

[gantzerteo]

Psionics as stand alone classes will never come to be. At least in this edition where the main concept is to simplify the load of rules.
A brand new psionic system most of independent from the 3 core books is something unbearable for 5E.
As the (forgotten, thankfully) Prestige Classes argument.
Even in 3.X psionics simply broke the rules, capsizing the postulates of the core books as the game was intended to work (Evasion, Grapple, type of damage etc.) and they never really settle in with any other class or setting with some (few) exceptions.
Psionics is good only as Monsters/NPCs which don't need any new rules.

 

[MichaelSomething]

Instead of getting something, you got nothing...

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Which is fine if this is your way of saying "I don't want to talk about my allegation about prior editions being relevant to now". We don't need to debate that back and forth.

I literally have no idea what this means. I re-read both my post and yours and I am none the wiser. That's some wacky stuff.

WOTC have claimed this is the leased objectionable approach because ALL their decisions are based on the least objectionable approach, even if it's described in different words like "This is the one the most people found awesome!"

They haven't made any comment at all on whether psionics-as-spells is popular AFAIK, neither phrased as "least worst" or "most awesome" nor anything in-between. That's the claim I'm arguing with.

They have commented on the psionic subclass approach, but that's a bit different.

But, mostly I am just happy they finally settled on something and will put out psionics stuff finally.

I feel like this is optimistic. I think these three subclasses may well be all the psionic stuff we see before 6E at the current rate. I mean, Dark Sun might happen, but honestly it seems unlikely given it's just getting more topical and WotC are a part of a big, risk-averse, politics-averse corporation.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

I think these three subclasses may well be all the psionic stuff we see before 6E at the current rate.

So? It means you will have three different ways to play a psionic character. How many would you need?