D&D 5E Greater Invis and Stealth checks, how do you rule it?

[Hriston]

Putting the outcome much more in doubt. Different DCs, advantages and disadvantages exist for a reason. In such a situation hiding roll would represent avoiding to making noise. Now obviously trying to detect someone based on the noise alone is much harder than if you can see them.

This doesn't follow for me. What are you setting the DC at to hear a creature that's invisible or behind a rock that it's less in doubt than if that same creature takes the Hide action, effectively setting the DC 1 above the creature's Stealth check? I mean, the creature could roll a natural 1 on its check. How are you making noticing it less in doubt than that? Are you saying you'd impose disadvantage on a check to notice a hiding creature that's unseen? Because that's, like, the default. You can't even try to hide from a creature that can (clearly) see you.

 

[Hriston]

Setting DC. Without it you're at the DM mercy on that and it very often won't be nearly as high.

If you (the DM) are setting the DC that low, doesn't that just result in them being noticed automatically most of time anyway? The average non-proficient PC has a passive Perception of at least 11.

 

[Swarmkeeper]

You could be beyond hearing range in a battle. That's a DM call. Combat is very loud and even though you are aware of your surroundings, you can't focus on them without ending up dead. Your focus is the enemy trying to kill you, so an invisible opponent 100 feet away is very likely to be unheard.

You could also be under the effects of silence.

So moving far away could make you unheard. How did you get there unheard? Are you making attacks from that position or just chilling, trying not to be noticed? Sounds a bit like Hide either way. Sure, DM call can cover that - but, and you clipped this part of my prior post, are you giving them a free Hide (with the mechanical benefits that come with it) and allowing other actions?

No. I don't ask for a hide roll. I simply set a DC to notice the "hidden" PC and go from there. If the Invisible PC want control over the DC, because rolled hide check will often be higher that ser DCs, he can use an action to do so.

For example, if an invisible PC is in a noisy tavern, but is not trying to be quiet, I'd set a moderate DC to detect. It's pretty easy to exceed that with a hide roll, even at level 1. At mid and high levels you will exceed a lot.

I'm not sure I follow your example. What is the invisible PC in the noisy tavern trying to accomplish and how are they going about doing it? Since they are not trying to be quiet, it doesn't seem to involve Stealth.

 

[Ovinomancer]

There is no 'default position' because there is no default situation. What are the 'default' creatures involved, what is the 'default' ground like, what is the 'default' amount of ambient noise, what is the 'default' terrain like and what are the other 'default' obstacles and structures?

Hiding is for making you harder to detect than you would be otherwise. What that 'otherwise' is depends on myriad other variables.

I'll guarantee you have a default position, though, because the alternative means that you stop and take time, every moment, to determine the totality of the situation and adjudicate detection. Since I'm 100% confident you don't do this, you have a default understanding of the world that the vast majority of the time creatures are just noticed. It's only in the special circumstances that you'd bother to even look at it. This is what a default does.

Now, I can get behind our defaults being a different strengths. But, my default is that invisibility alone is insufficient to override the default assumption that you're noticed. Invisibility and something else, sure. Likewise, being behind a rock isn't sufficient -- others still know where you are. Being behind a rock and no one knowing where you are requires some other effort or circumstance, which may be as simple as the rock is 100' away and it's a touch foggy. Regardless, my initial position will be that you are noticed and will only modify if something exists that would alter that. Then I apply my judgement, which probably isn't that different from yours.

 

[Maxperson]

If you (the DM) are setting the DC that low, doesn't that just result in them being noticed automatically most of time anyway? The average non-proficient PC has a passive Perception of at least 11.

I don't use passive rules. However, a moderate DC is 15, so most passive perceptions wont pick that up.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

I'll guarantee you have a default position, though, because the alternative means that you stop and take time, every moment, to determine the totality of the situation and adjudicate detection. Since I'm 100% confident you don't do this, you have a default understanding of the world that the vast majority of the time creatures are just noticed. It's only in the special circumstances that you'd bother to even look at it. This is what a default does.

This is some weird semantics. Of course the GM has to asses the situation holistically. And can you answer to what the 'default' is for all those categories I mentioned? Because I sure as hell can't, nor I see what would even be the point.

Now, I can get behind our defaults being a different strengths. But, my default is that invisibility alone is insufficient to override the default assumption that you're noticed. Invisibility and something else, sure.

How? That is blatantly absurd. If an invisible person stands silently in a middle of the field, 60 feet from you, how the naughty word would you know they're there? Perhaps some amazing super scout could possibly perceive the sound of their breathing, or some blades of leaf their feet had crushed or smell their sweat, but all of these seem like crazy difficult tasks to me, and of course an auto success would be blatantly laughable idea in such circumstances.

Likewise, being behind a rock isn't sufficient -- others still know where you are.

Again, how? If no one perceived them to go there, they were there from the beginning of the encounter, then auto-detecting them would be utterly bizarre. You're basically giving all creatures some absurd radar. Does this work through dungeon walls too? Can I detect secret passages by drawing my sword and being automatically aware of every rat or bug that could be behind the stone wall?

Being behind a rock and no one knowing where you are requires some other effort or circumstance, which may be as simple as the rock is 100' away and it's a touch foggy. Regardless, my initial position will be that you are noticed and will only modify if something exists that would alter that. Then I apply my judgement, which probably isn't that different from yours.

Being imperceptible by vision, the primary sense of most creatures in the setting is pretty damn gigantic alteration of circumstances!

 

[Flamestrike]

No. I'd like you to back up your assertions with actual rules. And you can't.

I can and I have. And I've also offered to prove it to you via consensus and also via the very words of the dudes who wrote the rules themselves.

Youre wrong. Or Crawford and Mearls are wrong, consensus is to be ignored, and the rulebook is optional.

Guess which one of those statements likely is true?

 

[Crimson Longinus]

I can and I have. And I've also offered to prove it to you via consensus and also via the very words of the dudes who wrote the rules themselves.

Youre wrong. Or Crawford and Mearls are wrong, consensus is to be ignored, and the rulebook is optional.

Guess which one of those statements likely is true?

If they wanted the rule to be that everyone is automatically aware of each other's position, they should have written it in the rules. But they didn't. So regardless of what you think, what they think or what thousand people on Reddit think, it's not in the rules and that's the fact.

 

[Flamestrike]

Of course. On that we agree. But inthe end, the mo k is at a minimum of 40 feet away and probably more if the guard is in heavy armor without the appropriate strength.

Hearing the monk is out of the question as the guard is running too and makes even more noise than the monk. He is in armor after all. So how can he locate what he can't see nor hear?

Use your logic and stop blindly applying an inept rule.

I am using logic, and the rules.

And he can see (footprints) and hear (footsteps, heavy breathing) the Monk.

Close your eyes. Ill run past you in fresking sneakers. I assure you you'll be able to discern the direction im coming from and the direction im heading with sufficient accuracy for several seconds to be able to put a bullet in me with a handgun.

Will you be as accurate as you would with an aimed shot? Nope. But you'll have a mental image of where I'm at

Can i run away from you for several seconds, then stop and start tiptoeing away on a different angle causing you to lose track of where im at?

Yep. But that's just me taking the Hide action on my second turn.

 

[Flamestrike]

If they wanted the rule to be that everyone is automatically aware of each other's position

They did. Its in the opening chapter of the combat section.

Its also inferred in that if you don't start the xombat Hidden, and you want yl Hide in combat, YOU NEED TO TAKE THE HIDE ACTION.

This was expressly confirmed by the bloody dude who wrote the rules.

Im gonna post a link to that interview.

Youre totally wrong by RAW and RAI.

Like in your game do what you want brother. Just don't try and sell it as rules.