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D&D 5E Spell Versatility is GONE. Rejoice!

The only thing Occam's Razor points to is them not wanting to publish it in this book. All else is assumption on your part. There is nothing that says that it was suitable or unsuitable for publication in its current form.

Why it so important to you to trash a rule that is good or bad depending entirely on subjective opinion? Why are you trying so hard to force it to be bad for everyone else?
Whether I think it to be good or bad has nothing to do why I think it was not in the book. I think it was a bad rule and I think the designers came to that conclusion too and decided to not publish it. However I also think that customising origins is a bad rule, yet the designers disagree with me and decided to publish it.
 

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Whether I think it to be good or bad has nothing to do why I think it was not in the book. I think it was a bad rule and I think the designers came to that conclusion too and decided to not publish it. However I also think that customising origins is a bad rule, yet the designers disagree with me and decided to publish it.
So, you mean that whether you think it's good or bad has everything to do with why you think it wasn't in the book, like you just admitted in that post. You essentially just said (summarizing), "I think it is a bad rule, so the designers agreed and that's why they took it out". That is literally leaping to conclusions based on your own personal opinion.
 

So, you mean that whether you think it's good or bad has everything to do with why you think it wasn't in the book, like you just admitted in that post. You essentially just said (summarizing), "I think it is a bad rule, so the designers agreed and that's why they took it out". That is literally leaping to conclusions based on your own personal opinion.
No. The rule is not in the book because the designers most likely though that it is a bad rule. I too happen think it is a bad rule, but that has nothing to do with it being in the book or not.
 

No, it doesn't.

A fighter critting on every single attack they make is an anomally of math. We know exactly how likely it is, and it is purely a an artifact of the dice. But do you know what the fighter is balanced around?

Assuming they hit.

No fighter is balanced assuming that they will miss most of their attacks. The game is balanced so that if the fighter hits on every single attack, the game is not broken.
An outgrowth of everything having huge whacks of hit points relative to some editions, perhaps: the fighter can hit on every attack and it'll still take ages to bring the foe down.
And so it is with spells. The game is built with the assumption that you have the correct spells for the situation. However, there is consideration given after the fact that that situation is unlikely.Hence things like Elemental Adept being added in an acknowledgement that, yes, you might have the wrong elemental type to deal with this monster.

Having the perfect spell selection is not broken. It can't be, because the design can't assume what your spell selection is.
Happening to have the perfect spell selection for a situation vs happening to have a selection of spells that are of no use in that situation makes a much bigger difference than whether or not the fighter hits every time.

Which makes the question very simple: should the game make it easy to swap out spells (or to have all spells castable at all times), or should swapping require a certain amount of in-game time (a long-rest, a day, a week, the next downtime, whatever), or should swapping spells be impossible in any form.
Yes with a whole host of limitations.

1) It can't be subtled, because you need to speak to the target to give the suggestion
2) It has to be a reasonable suggestion, and cannot be a suggestion to self harm
3) If you or your allies harm the creature, the spell ends

Phantasmal Force would have none of these restrictions. You could have the God you are impersonating show up and demand the King flagellate himself in front of the court to atone for his sins. It could demand that the Paladin in your party do it.

So, Phantasmal Force and Suggestion are clearly not supposed to do the same things.
Suggestion, if done right, can hose someone over far worse than PF can. Sure it doesn't do any damage, but the 'Suggested' task could be something that keeps the target busy for a long time, and thus out of your hair.

As for PF and other illusions: I take the stance that if someone believes an illusion then that illusion can hurt or even kill the believer, if done right. If someone casts a five-sense illusion of the cave collapsing on your head and you fall for it, you're in a world o' trouble.
I think we have a fundamental difference of opinion on one aspect of this spell in particular.

Who writes the script the illusion follows? Is the target of the spell deciding what the illusion says and does? Or is it the sorcerer who decides?
The caster, always.
And if it is the sorcerer deciding what is said, how is it any different to speak through an illusory image of a god than it is to speak while wearing the mask of a nobleman? If a thief uses his disguise kit to appear like a nobleman, and he goes to do something under that guise, does he automatically succeed in deceiving or persuading the people he is targeting, no roll, because he is using the knowledge on his target against them and hoping they bite?

No. And Phantasmal Force being used in the manner you are presenting is just an elaborate puppet show the sorcerer is putting on. And that does not mean they get to skip straight to success.
Situationally dependent. If the illusion is subtle enough that there's no reason not to disbelieve it (e.g. very slowly moving the gang-plank of a ship three feet to the left such that the next person who tries walking on it goes splash) then it's auto-success.

That said, one thing I don't allow illusions to do is coherently speak. The best they can do is make mumbly sounds as if speaking a very foreign language, but Comprehend Language or Tongues will not translate this speech (which might be a clue that something fishy's going on...)

The one that has someone's deity showing up is interesting: yes the viewer can try to disbelieve...but from the viewer's side there's going to be that doubt: what if it really is my deity and I'm caught looking askance at it?
Provide a quote from the designers stating that they felt this was a bad rule that would hurt the game. Then you get to claim you know what they thought.
Given that this idea seems to have been in the pre-marketing and was then pulled, what other reasoning could there be?

I suppose there's a non-zero chance it was intentionally pulled from this release in order to include it in some future release where it fits better, or as a setting-specific rule, or because of practical issues e.g. page count/space; but all of these seem rather unlikely.
 


There is no proof of this.
Sure, it is conjecture. But it is the most likely scenario by far. The designers publish rules they think are good and don't publish rules they think are bad. It is rather perplexing that we're even discussing this.

Are you saying that your own opinion of the rule does not bias this opinion at all?
Yes. I preferred the UA version of favoured foe, the designers disagreed with me. I though that spell versatility had serious issues and seems that the designers agreed with me.
 

So, you mean that whether you think it's good or bad has everything to do with why you think it wasn't in the book, like you just admitted in that post. You essentially just said (summarizing), "I think it is a bad rule, so the designers agreed and that's why they took it out". That is literally leaping to conclusions based on your own personal opinion.
It has nothing to do with one particular person or table. It has everything to do with the majority of what is played at tables around the world.

That rule might have worked out for you, Max and many others, but it was disruptive enough for the majority that the designers had no choice but to class that rule as bad balance wise.

A designer does not make rule for a minority
A designer makes rule for the majority, knowing full well that some tables will ignore or improve on what will be at their table. It does mean that the designers will also have to take into account that some table will be inexperienced enough to not recognize if a rule might be disruptive enough. At some point, that rule was deemed disruptive enough to be entirerly removed for the greater good of both the brand and the player base.

A few here believe that I appointed my self the defender of the young and inexperienced. In a sense, it is not that far from the truth. The truth is that I always go for what will the majority will do with a rule/expansion/source book and check how it could derailed. Just like the designers do.

It is easy to say:"At my table it would not be so. At my table I know." But at some point you have to think that many are not as experienced or stubborn as you and I are. Unless we do not care about the hobby, we must take into account those that are young or inexperienced (or both) when judging if a rule is good or bad. Because in the end, if a rule ends up so disruptive as to turn away the majority of the customers toward other product, the brand might fall.

And for those who sniff at my arguments, does 4ed and Pathfinder ring a bell?
 
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Because in the end, if a rule ends up so disruptive as to turn away the majority of the customers toward other product, the brand might fall.
This rule made it to marketing materials that were still around early this month. If this rule was bad for the brand, why was it highlighted to sell the book?

mmm. Now that I think of it, would it be deceptive advertising to have promised something in the marketing campaign just to have it removed right before the book was printed?
 

Sure, it is conjecture. But it is the most likely scenario by far. The designers publish rules they think are good and don't publish rules they think are bad. It is rather perplexing that we're even discussing this.
But you are treating it as if it's an absolute fact, as you are with the "goodness/badness" of this feature.
Yes. I preferred the UA version of favoured foe, the designers disagreed with me. I though that spell versatility had serious issues and seems that the designers agreed with me.
A ton of people complained about the UA version of Favored Foe because it was no concentration, just like a ton of people complained about this feature. We don't know if the designers themselves thought that these features were good or bad, as they have said nothing on the matter.
 

That rule might have worked out for you, Max and many others, but it was disruptive enough for the majority that the designers had no choice but to class that rule as bad balance wise.
But. . . it wasn't disruptive. It would not disrupt your table if the DM didn't use it, and wouldn't disrupt it if the table using it liked it.
 

Into the Woods

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