D&D 5E 20th level Sorcerer vs the world

[FireLance]

This thread is pretty much an attempt to convert the sorcerer's advantages into "I win" buttons.

First, through the use of metamagic such as Twin, Subtle and Extend. Twin and Extend are generally balanced by a wizard's access to more spells, so a wizard is able to cast spells more efficiently and can pretty much do anything the sorcerer can. For example, a wizard doesn't need to use wish to cast mind blank or simulacrum. Subtle is less useful in a straight-out fight if the opponent doesn't try to counterspell (more on this below).

Second, through the use of sorcerer subclass abilities such as the Divine Soul's access to clerical spells and wings, and the Clockwork Soul's Trance of Order to ensure a minimum roll of 10 for attack rolls, ability checks, and saving throws.

The initial idea of a flying sorcerer with flying minions can't match a straight-out fight against a 20th-level wizard with a pre-cast wish to obtain a pegasus from find greater steed. If the wizard casts invulnerability and relies on the pegasus to keep out of range of the minions, the wizard can unload attack spells with impunity.

This is why the Clockwork Soul version focuses on stealth and ability checks instead.

Overall, this thread has been interesting in surfacing the weaknesses of 5e as a system. My conclusion is that 5e is primarily balanced for PCs vs. monsters and not PvP, which, coupled with the desire for natural instead of technical language, makes certain spells worded more generally than they should be, creating weird corner cases and interactions for which there are no clear interpretations. Hence, it also highlights the need for a DM to adjudicate everything apart from a simple straight-out fight and some spells and abilities need a DM to weigh in even then. That means there is a great deal of variation between games and tables - an "unbeatable" DM PC in one game is anything but in another.

 

[Catulle]

That means there is a great deal of variation between games and tables - an "unbeatable" DM PC in one game is anything but in another.

And therein lies the rub

 

[Krachek]

This thread give plenty of reasons for not doing high level PvP.
And high level play is not easier, so most game stuck between 5-10th level because it gives a smoother play,
For world building we can try to simulate the interactions of multiple high level npc and factions, but it rapidly become an unsolvable puzzle. So it is better to assume conflicts, trade, Cold War, and to skip details until PCs are high level enough to interfere.

 

[Hohige]

This thread is pretty much an attempt to convert the sorcerer's advantages into "I win" buttons.

First, through the use of metamagic such as Twin, Subtle and Extend. Twin and Extend are generally balanced by a wizard's access to more spells, so a wizard is able to cast spells more efficiently and can pretty much do anything the sorcerer can. For example, a wizard doesn't need to use wish to cast mind blank or simulacrum. Subtle is less useful in a straight-out fight if the opponent doesn't try to counterspell (more on this below).

Second, through the use of sorcerer subclass abilities such as the Divine Soul's access to clerical spells and wings, and the Clockwork Soul's Trance of Order to ensure a minimum roll of 10 for attack rolls, ability checks, and saving throws.

The initial idea of a flying sorcerer with flying minions can't match a straight-out fight against a 20th-level wizard with a pre-cast wish to obtain a pegasus from find greater steed. If the wizard casts invulnerability and relies on the pegasus to keep out of range of the minions, the wizard can unload attack spells with impunity.

This is why the Clockwork Soul version focuses on stealth and ability checks instead.

Overall, this thread has been interesting in surfacing the weaknesses of 5e as a system. My conclusion is that 5e is primarily balanced for PCs vs. monsters and not PvP, which, coupled with the desire for natural instead of technical language, makes certain spells worded more generally than they should be, creating weird corner cases and interactions for which there are no clear interpretations. Hence, it also highlights the need for a DM to adjudicate everything apart from a simple straight-out fight and some spells and abilities need a DM to weigh in even then. That means there is a great deal of variation between games and tables - an "unbeatable" DM PC in one game is anything but in another.

"This thread is pretty much an attempt to convert the sorcerer's advantages into "I win" buttons."
I couldn't agree more.

"First, through the use of metamagic such as Twin, Subtle and Extend. Twin and Extend are generally balanced by a wizard's access to more spells, so a wizard is able to cast spells more efficiently and can pretty much do anything the sorcerer can. For example, a wizard doesn't need to use wish to cast mind blank or simulacrum. Subtle is less useful in a straight-out fight if the opponent doesn't try to counterspell (more on this below)."

Can Wizards Twin Simulacrum, Twin Finger of Death, Twin Mind Blank?
Extended Aid, Extended Seeming, Extended Ethrealness is too good. The Sorcerer regains sp to convert into spellls slots, the sorcerer casts more spells than Wizards
Subtle is for stealth casting, avoid detection and social god tricks. It's how wizards are now Chicken statues.
Distant spell is obvious good to attack on safe range. Empower to increase his damage.


"Second, through the use of sorcerer subclass abilities such as the Divine Soul's access to clerical spells and wings, and the Clockwork Soul's Trance of Order to ensure a minimum roll of 10 for attack rolls, ability checks, and saving throws."

It turns the sorcerer into a monster that automatic wins saving throws and turn him into the best skill monkey of the game. With, Trance of Order Subtle/Extended Skill Empowerment, Magical Guidance, Minions's help action and Guidance cantrip. He can do everything better than all others.

'The initial idea of a flying sorcerer with flying minions can't match a straight-out fight against a 20th-level wizard with a pre-cast wish to obtain a pegasus from find greater steed. If the wizard casts invulnerability and relies on the pegasus to keep out of range of the minions, the wizard can unload attack spells with impunity."


It's a suicidal tatic, I will fail and another Wizard that is dead now.
Show me your Wizard's build with prepared spells. I will explain how to counter it easily.

"This is why the Clockwork Soul version focuses on stealth and ability checks instead."

Focused on Stealth chek to sneaky casting and turns Wizard into chickens forever.
The Bastion is the best skill monkey and manipulative character of the game and can create a army against all school of magic with his deception tricks.

 

[Hohige]

This thread give plenty of reasons for not doing high level PvP.
And high level play is not easier, so most game stuck between 5-10th level because it gives a smoother play,
For world building we can try to simulate the interactions of multiple high level npc and factions, but it rapidly become an unsolvable puzzle. So it is better to assume conflicts, trade, Cold War, and to skip details until PCs are high level enough to interfere.

I create a build level Dragon Sorcerer 8 that is nearly unbeatiable.

 

[Catulle]

Can you possibly try presenting your arguments in intelligible English? The way you outright ignore reasonable questions throughout the thread has a number of us questioning your good faith.

 

[Krachek]

I create a build level Dragon Sorcerer 8 that is nearly unbeatiable.

Then play it in a game with a party. And if the Dm respect the Xp budget, pretty any crappy character is unbeatable.

 

[Hohige]

Another trick is. Prepare two days. With Sorcerer's Sorcerous Restoration feature (Fair use) to convert sorcery points into spells slots. It isn't avoiding exaustion.
It means 192 (2 days preparation) + 22 original sorcery points turned into 43, 3th spells slots.
Use all 3th spells slots to cast Extended Tiny Servants (16 hours).
Wish to duplicate animal shapes with distant spell.
43 Tiny Servants into Giant Coral Snake, Giant Eagle and Giant Flying Spider + Simulacrums's assassinations.
Each turn regaining their HP.
How good is it?

 

[Catulle]

How good is it?

Worthless.

You keep dodging any questions around permissible prep time, which ends up with these "demigod" builds looking like DMPC nonsense. Please, explain things like the non-"DM-pwease" matron mother simulcrum, for once?

(Oh, who am I kidding, the troll's going to keep on ignoring the mechanical issues, keep on insisting that it "strongly disagrees" and keep on failing to mechanically walk all the ridiculous talk)

 

[Benjamin Olson]

This thread is pretty much an attempt to convert the sorcerer's advantages into "I win" buttons.

I think a fundamental issue with debating "who would win" one on one fights in a game with a heavy dose of random chance and endless variables, is that all manner of builds, tactics, etc. that usually would work and are strong in actual play get passed up in favor of edge-case, broken, overbuilt "will always work exactly this way" tactics, and then it becomes a matter of debating the hyper-specific responses to overly specific strategies.

A build in this context can't just have very good stealth that would usually work and be fun for actual play, it has to have +87 stealth, by collecting every possible weird boost, and then the response has to be "well my guy will just have the spell-of-always-seeing-stealth-things, even with +87 bonuses", so then the build needs the spell-of-not-being-seen-even-by-the-spell-of-always-seeing-stealth-things. A rules argument then generally proceeds.

At one point we had a build here that (briefly) had spent a feat on making the Sorcerer proficient in Intelligence saves. For actual play that is one of the singularly worst uses of a feat I can imagine. Saving throw proficiency is always a boring use of a feat, but this combines that blandness with picking a saving throw so uncommon that most 5e characters will probably never be asked to make one. But one of the very few things it would help with is Feeblemind, a situational spell itself rarely worth having prepared for regular play that just happens to be a borderline win button against an unprepared Sorcerer. Of course the intelligence saves thing was just a belt and suspenders approach because the problem was already solved by using the Sorcerer's 9th level spell slot to Wish for Mindblank most days, itself one of the most boring of all high level spells and one usually unnecessary for actual play.