D&D 5E 20th level Sorcerer vs the world

[Hohige]

All the imperceptible casting means is the victim does not know your location. It does not mean any other rules of combat, such as rolling initiative, are abrogated.

Imperceptible spells means imperceptible.
The target doesnt know nothing.

Again: Subtle Spell doesn't make the spell imperceptible. It makes casting the spell imperceptible. [EDIT: It at best makes casting the spell imperceptible. If there are material components involved, you still need to deal with them, which might enable someone to know you've been casting.]

If (in the absence of some mass telepathy effect) you use Subtle Spell to cast Mass Suggestion, everyone can hear the words you say--there's just not any abaracadabra ala kazam stuff before it. If some of them save, they might notice their companions behaving strangely, and be able to figure out what happened.

I'm pretty sure that example is entirely consistent with what's in Xanathar's and with the relevant SA stuff.

If you use Subtle Spell to cast Mind Spike, it doesn't give away your position, but the victim knows they've taken psychic damage, and can reasonably conclude they're under attack. A ruling otherwise is extremely friendly to the party and the sorcerer.

It's no wonder your opinions of your characters are so ... skewed, and why they flop so persistently when faced with the actual rules as the game is actually played (at tables other than your own, which seems to have gone pretty far astray--but if y'all are having fun, that's the primary goal, it's not badwrongfun or anything, there are just some presumptions baked into the game y'all are playing and D&D 5E that make them very different games in practice).

Read Xanathar's rules
Its totally imperceptible.
Again.
Imperceptible.

 

[prabe]

Imperceptible spells means imperceptible.
The target doesnt know nothing.

Read Xanathar's rules
Its totally imperceptible.
Again.
Imperceptible.

[citation needed]

 

[Hohige]

[citation needed]

I already did It.

Find on book (perceiving caster at work) or this thread.

 

[prabe]

[citation needed]

It's possible you're misinterpreting this:

If the need for a spell’s components has been removed by a special ability, such as the sorcerer’s Subtle Spell feature or the Innate Spellcasting trait possessed by many creatures, the casting of the spell is imperceptible. If an imperceptible casting produces a perceptible effect, it’s normally impossible to determine who cast the spell in the absence of other evidence.

The target of, e.g., mind spike, is taking damage, which is a perceptible effect.

 

[Hohige]

This would be a perfect ENWorld poll of DMs, would a DM allow initiative in Hohige’s imagined rules.

Its hilarious scene
Whats happening?
I dont know... And you?
I dont know too.
WTF

It's possible you're misinterpreting this:

The target of, e.g., mind spike, is taking damage, which is a perceptible effect.

Again and again.
Psychic damage doesnt have visual evidence.
Its just damage.
All you know, nothing more.

 

[fearsomepirate]

Hmm, Interesting. I wonder how well it applies in this instance though. Suggestion and Mind Spike are a bit different circumstances.

To be clear though, I do agree that a target would know they had to make Wisdom saving throw and that they took psychic damage as a result. Where I don't think it is clear is if the target knows if it was specifically the spell Mind Spike.

Knowing what spell affected you is an Arcana check with DC 15 + Spell Level, so 17 in this case.

 

[Zio_the_dark]

All you know, nothing more.

An intelligent opponent doesn't need to know more

 

[prabe]

Its hilarious scene?
Whats h

Again and again.
Psychic damage doesnt have visual evidence.
Its just damage.
All you know, nothing more.

"Visual [sic] evidence" isn't the only kind of perceptible. An Arcane Trickster using their invisible Mage Hand to, say, tap someone on the shoulder to give themself advantage on an attack, is generating a perceptible effect in the absence of visible evidence.

Psychic damage is damage--it says so, right on the tin--and damage is perceptible.

They don't know where you are--I don't think there's been any dispute about that--but they know something is hurting them, and they absolutely get to act, and rolling Initiative determines the order in which their actions and yours happen.

 

[Hohige]

"Visual [sic] evidence" isn't the only kind of perceptible. An Arcane Trickster using their invisible Mage Hand to, say, tap someone on the shoulder to give themself advantage on an attack, is generating a perceptible effect in the absence of visible evidence.

Psychic damage is damage--it says so, right on the tin--and damage is perceptible.

They don't know where you are--I don't think there's been any dispute about that--but they know something is hurting them, and they absolutely get to act, and rolling Initiative determines the order in which their actions and yours happen.

They know something is hurting them. Sure.
A curse? Your party member? A Powerful Hotdog? A nightmare?

 

[fearsomepirate]

Again and again.
Psychic damage doesnt have visual evidence.

There's nothing about something being noticeable that requires it to be visible. You notice when you've been hurt, and you know it was psychic.