D&D 5E RIP alignment

[Remathilis]

I have a hard time pinning down your position in this thread, because one minute you seem to be advocating for no alignment and playable orcs and then next bemoaning the lack of evil orcs and drow in D&D.

My opinion is that the paradigm of D&D has rapidly changed since it's renewed popularity in the age of streaming. The new generation of players are bringing in a radically different style of play, and the changes are inevitable. The game is less epic battle of the forces of good and evil, more about bards making sexy time with their drow waifus. And me screaming into the void isn't going to stop it. So if the game is going to change, let it. Let the flood wash away the old and usher in the new. I just don't have to like everything that's changing.

 

[MGibster]

However, like the quote above, I do feel anything that steers D&D back towards the "toolbox" mode (choose species, choose foes, create world, etc) might be a good thing.

When I think of a toolbox game D&D isn't what comes to immediate mind. At this point, D&D is kind of its own thing and it's designed for a very specific type of game experience. And one of it's greatest strengths that helps make it popular is that you can plop down just about any character you make using the PHB and it'll fit into the campaign. I know the DMG gives a whole bunch of tips for how someone can customize their campaign setting, but I don't know if a significant number of players experience anything other than D&D as it's presented by WotC.

 

[grimslade]

I feel like I should do the 9 alignment meme to show all the arguments in this thread, but I'm too lazy. Kind of like why I'd miss alignment in stat blocks, I'm lazy and it was shorthand I understood. Yes, it is problematic to have alignment restrict the possibilities of any given individual of a monster species. We all know gnomes are all chaotic evil no matter what the stat block says anyway... I still think alignment is valuable for individuals stat blocks in adventures, but that may be because I have 40 years of playing with alignment in D&D. It was two letters that imparted a lot of meaning to me. To a new player, like my daughter? It is a meme. A meme generally played as a joke. Her idea of the drow is more like a disaffected dilettante of the Unseelie Court than the decadent demon-worshipping denizens of Erelhei-Cinlu.
I still see value in alignment but it needs a retune and it would be so different from what came before I don't know if it should bear the same name. I will not cheer the removal of alignment, but I understand its removal.

 

[Oofta]

That's simple. It doesn't add anything to the game for me, it doesn't work towards the focus -- so it's only natural to throw it out of my game. That's how design of my personal game works.

If alignment actually was important (as if, the whole system was designed around a great conflict between the forces of Good and Evil), then it'd be a bad idea to throw it out. But since it is useless to me, why even have it in my games?

Fixed that for you. You don't find it useful? Ignore it.

Don't buy the vanilla ice cream and be happy that there are a dozen other flavors and plenty of other deserts in the store.

 

[MGibster]

My opinion is that the paradigm of D&D has rapidly changed since it's renewed popularity in the age of streaming. The new generation of players are bringing in a radically different style of play, and the changes are inevitable.

Yeah. Who knows what changes we'll see 20 years from now?

The game is less epic battle of the forces of good and evil, more about bards making sexy time with their drow waifus.

Sad. I know my players don't really care about good versus evil showdowns.

And me screaming into the void isn't going to stop it.

It's cathartic though.

So if the game is going to change, let it. Let the flood wash away the old and usher in the new. I just don't have to like what's changing.

Bingo. I may not like all the changes but they're still making a pretty good game. And actually, I'm fine with a lot of the changes. i.e. I'm fine with orcs not being evil all the time but I'm also fine with them being evil all the time. I can get a good game experience either way.

 

[Maxperson]

It’s the same fundamental argument, the only difference is of scale.

No. The difference is content. The arguments are the same, but the content differs greatly, changing everything.

 

[Oofta]

My opinion is that the paradigm of D&D has rapidly changed since it's renewed popularity in the age of streaming. The new generation of players are bringing in a radically different style of play, and the changes are inevitable. The game is less epic battle of the forces of good and evil, more about bards making sexy time with their drow waifus. And me screaming into the void isn't going to stop it. So if the game is going to change, let it. Let the flood wash away the old and usher in the new. I just don't have to like everything that's changing.

Why can't we have both? Alignment has no real impact, but I can guarantee that a significant portion of players will always want some version of good vs evil because it's part of the stories we have always told. Straightjacket? No, at least not for me. General descriptor and concept that's not strictly enforced? I don't see a problem with it.

 

[Vaalingrade]

The game is less epic battle of the forces of good and evil, more about bards making sexy time with their drow waifus.

I watch a lot of D&D streams and I have yet to see one that matches this accusation.

 

[Maxperson]

It's more like 'I don't see the point of vanilla ice cream and I wish that law that everyone needs to eat a cone every morning before work should be repealed'.

Here's the thing: if you're not the DM, you don't have a choice but to engage with alignment and the stupid moral and ethical arguments it entails. I make a diplomancer who is a pathological liar but is CG. The DM thinks lying is evil because of the BoED 3.5 and they insist I'm CN at best and because of the stupidity around what people think of CN or Evil alignments, my character is banned.

Nobody is forcing you to play with a DM like that. Find a new DM that is more understanding. Or, DM yourself for a short adventure and show the players how it can be done. You have options. Removing alignment from those who understand the tool is not even close to being your best one.

 

[loverdrive]

Fixed that for you. You don't find it useful? Ignore it.

Don't buy the vanilla ice cream and be happy that there are a dozen other flavors and plenty of other deserts in the store.

Again, that's not how design works ¯\(ツ)/¯

There are tons of stuff that can theoretically be useful, but including it all leads to bloated mess — so you need to cut out all of the stuff that isn't important.