D&D 5E RIP alignment

[Oofta]

Again, that's not how design works ¯\(ツ)/¯

There are tons of stuff that can theoretically be useful, but including it all leads to bloated mess — so you need to cut out all of the stuff that isn't important.

Right. Stores should stop selling vanilla ice cream because you don't find it useful.

Have a good one.

 

[Eltab]

question if we are going to have good or evil what do they mean or at least what you guys think they mean?

You are asking Athens* and Jerusalem** to get together and reach a mutually-agreed (but not perfect) conclusion, then go have a similar conversation with Lake Geneva WI***

* home of classical philosophy
** holy city to multiple religions
*** home of Gary Gygax, creator of D&D

 

[Maxperson]

Again, that's not how design works ¯\(ツ)/¯

There are tons of stuff that can theoretically be useful, but including it all leads to bloated mess — so you need to cut out all of the stuff that isn't important.

No I don't. I've been playing D&D since 1983 and alignment has been useful and worked since then. YOU cut it out of YOUR game. It's not hard now that there are almost no mechanics associated with it and leave my game alone.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Nobody is forcing you to play with a DM like that. Find a new DM that is more understanding. Or, DM yourself for a short adventure and show the players how it can be done. You have options. Removing alignment from those who understand the tool is not even close to being your best one.

Everyone who likes alignment claims to understand it, but I guarantee you that your individual understandings don't match up.

And stop accusing people who dislike alignment of not understanding it. I get what it's supposed to do and it is garbage at it. It tries to make objective descriptors out of subjective concepts, making it useless for actually communicating all but the barest of basics of those concepts.

Moreover, what people who 'understand' alignment don't. It was supposed to be a team jersey. You were on the side of Chaos or Evil and you fought against the agenda of the other guys; it had nothing to do with your actions or personality. Over time it's mutated into this weird war of prescriptive vs descriptive tag for action or personality but also the physical underpinning of the cosmology.

Also, there's always this idyllic vision of a DM-rich environment that's not as painfully toxic as con pick-up games or that everyone has the desire to DM. I do DM a lot, but sometimes you want to play and it's still just as annoying to pretend alignment matters when playing under someone who uses it.

 

[Charlaquin]

I watch a lot of D&D streams and I have yet to see one that matches this accusation.

While it’s obfuscated by the hyperbole, I do think there’s an underlying truth that @Remathilis is alluding to. There has been a gradual shift in the focus of most D&D campaigns. While epic battles still happen and roleplaying romance and sex is pretty niche, there has been a gradual shift in focus away from killing monsters and taking their stuff towards narratives that spotlight the characters’ internal lives.

 

[Oofta]

Everyone who likes alignment claims to understand it, but I guarantee you that your individual understandings don't match up.

And stop accusing people who dislike alignment of not understanding it. I get what it's supposed to do and it is garbage at it. It tries to make objective descriptors out of subjective concepts, making it useless for actually communicating all but the barest of basics of those concepts.

Moreover, what people who 'understand' alignment don't. It was supposed to be a team jersey. You were on the side of Chaos or Evil and you fought against the agenda of the other guys; it had nothing to do with your actions or personality. Over time it's mutated into this weird war of prescriptive vs descriptive tag for action or personality but also the physical underpinning of the cosmology.

Also, there's always this idyllic vision of a DM-rich environment that's not as painfully toxic as con pick-up games or that everyone has the desire to DM. I do DM a lot, but sometimes you want to play and it's still just as annoying to pretend alignment matters when playing under someone who uses it.

I have yet to have a player who didn't have a basic concept of alignment that was close enough to my personal version.

If people are using alignment as a straight-jacket that's a different issue. In 5E, it's just one descriptive attribute.

 

[loverdrive]

No I don't. I've been playing D&D since 1983 and alignment has been useful and worked since then. YOU cut it out of YOUR game. It's not hard now that there are almost no mechanics associated with it and leave my game alone.

There are tools that accomplish the same goal with zero downsides of alignment chart.

Gnolls: medium humanoids, savage, bloodthirsty, strong blood ties works better in literally any scenario than Gnolls: medium humanoids, Chaotic Evil. Why use an inferior tool, if there's a superior one?

 

[FreeTheSlaves]

In my last session, the party took 4 prisoners: a N kobold, NE veteran, LE acolyte, & LE teenage cultist.

From this shorthand I figured out that the kobold latched onto the kindest PC fighter, the veteran sold out the acolyte, the acolyte died praising Tiamat, and the teen cultist could have be de-brain washed - if he hadn't died under the wheels of the run away wagon.

A few sessions earlier a new player left early and his then player-less PC was asked to help save a drowning hero. I didn't know what he'd do, then player's mum said he was LN. Bingo, he obeyed orders like a reliable lad.

I want to be able to improv fast, and move the pace. Removing alignment is not helpful to me.

 

[Maxperson]

Everyone who likes alignment claims to understand it, but I guarantee you that your individual understandings don't match up.

That doesn't matter. I said more understanding, not understands alignment to be identical to what you understand it to be. Lots of DMs have loose borders for alignment and allow things that they don't personally see, or just don't bother with it on the player side at all. Find one of them or show your players the way. Stop trying to take tools away from those of us who use them correctly.

And stop accusing people who dislike alignment of not understanding it.

I didn't. That was your incorrect assumption about what I said.

 

[Maxperson]

There are tools that accomplish the same goal with zero downsides of alignment chart.

Then pop those into your game and have at it.

Gnolls: medium humanoids, savage, bloodthirsty, strong blood ties works better in literally any scenario than Gnolls: medium humanoids, Chaotic Evil. Why use an inferior tool, if there's a superior one?

That works worse than alignment. CE tells me much more. And alignment is vague around the edges so that I can input a lot of things of my own. You'd night a good size paragraph at the very least to reach what alignment tells me about a creature, let alone exceed it.