D&D 5E A different take on Alignment

[Mind of tempest]

Knights of the old republic mmorpg.
Edit: this is in contrast in which jedi will form many younglings at the same time and only when their training is about to end will they become padawans. That is what I understood from the mmorpg.

rule of two sith the apprentice must kill the master to become the master.
before they did not inherently need to but if you wanted up it was a quick route.

 

[Helldritch]

rule of two sith the apprentice must kill the master to become the master.
before they did not inherently need to but if you wanted up it was a quick route.

Yep. Rule of two. Killing your Master was not mandatory but a quick way to ascension. This is the reason why the Sith empire slowly declined as less and less Sith would be trained or survive to train new ones. As Paladine in Dragon Lance said:" Evil always turn upon itself".

 

[Mind of tempest]

Yep. Rule of two. Killing your Master was not mandatory but a quick way to ascension. This is the reason why the Sith empire slowly declined as less and less Sith would be trained or survive to train new ones. As Paladine in Dragon Lance said:" Evil always turn upon itself".

the brotherhood of darkness had the opposite problem too may weak sith not able to get anywhere just being jerks for no reason getting nothing done.

 

[Flamestrike]

If you read the books, LE. All the way through. What you describe is a typical LE.

No he is not typical LE.

Frank Castle is LE. Roose Bolton and Tywin Lannister are LE. Steel Brightblade is LE. Artemis Entreri is LE. Lord Soth is LE. For the latter three they have DnD stats that clearly show they're LE.

Darth Vader is nothing like any of the above. The three examples of LE have clear codes of conduct they follow (never attacking an unarmed man, never attacking an unworthy foe, fighting with honor etc). Vader has nothing even close.

Lawful Evil PCs have a respect for family, honor and tradition, are disciplined and follow a code that (in their eyes) makes them more noble that the standard villain.

Vader has none of that. The only 'code' he follows is the Sith code, which is summarized as basically 'Act CE, follow your base emotions, give in to hatred and anger, betray and kill your master'. His word means nothing, he was prepared to maim, turn over to the Emperor and even personally kill his own son (and wife) before finally redeeming himself to save Luke, he has no respect for traditions literally destroying the Jedi, Republic, Sith and Empire in his lifetime, follows no law (other than the Emperors orders, and he betrays the Emperor when he can get away with it).

He betrays literally everyone he cares about, and kills or tries to kill them.

Lawful Evil:

These people played by the rules, albeit without mercy or compassion, and only obeyed laws out of fear of punishment. While they wouldn't break a promise, they seldom "gave their word" or put themselves on the line, unless it would clearly help them come out ahead. Many lawful evil characters had personal codes of conduct that they self-justifiably circumvented, such as not personally taking a life in cold blood, but had underlings that kill without discretion. These "rules" served their selfish, twisted view on morality.

Lawful evil

Vader did not play by the rules (as a Jedi or Sith). He broke promises willy nilly. He had no personal code of conduct as a Sith and would murder a person in cold blood as they slept, stab them in the back, cut down defenseless enemies, torture women, slaughter children, or coldly watch on as billions were killed by the Death Star.

You're conflating the fact that he is a CE servant of a LE Empire. He works for the Empire (sure). But its no different to how one can be CG servant of a LG empire, church or group.

He literally existed outside and above the law, followed no code at all, never kept his word, attempted to kill every single member of his family other than his mum, killed his best friend, attempted to kill both apprentices, killed both masters and the list just goes on and on and on.

There was literally noting Lawful about him other than the regime he worked for.

A CE would not show so much restraint.

Darth Vader shows restraint now?

In what possible way? Any direct attempt on Palpatine would see him dead, and when he finally did attempt it (after trying to convince literally everyone to help him in the act), it literally killed him in the process.

 

[Helldritch]

the brotherhood of darkness had the opposite problem too may weak sith not able to get anywhere just being jerks for no reason getting nothing done.

Yep to that too. When a master is sloppy on the training this is what you get.

 

[Flamestrike]

Yep. Rule of two. Killing your Master was not mandatory but a quick way to ascension.

Nah.

The purpose of Bane's new principle was to prevent infighting in the Sith Order, allowing future Sith Lords to concentrate on their goal of domination. Under the Rule of Two, a Sith apprentice had to kill the Sith Master in order to ascend the dark side of the Force, ensuring that the Sith grew more powerful and cunning with each generation.[10] If the apprentice failed, the master could replace them by training another student.[11] As a result, the relationship between the master and the apprentice lacked trust, as both constantly searched for signs of weakness in the other.[12]

Rule of Two

 

[Flamestrike]

Uh-oh. Someone is wrong about a fictional character's alignment. I guess you'll have to brow beat them about why your knowledge of alignment and the character is superior.

Thanks. I intend to.

 

[Helldritch]

No he is not typical LE.

Frank Castle is LE. Roose Bolton and Tywin Lannister are LE. Steel Brightblade is LE. Artemis Entreri is LE. Lord Soth is LE. For the latter three they have DnD stats that clearly show they're LE.

Darth Vader is nothing like any of the above. The three examples of LE have clear codes of conduct they follow (never attacking an unarmed man, never attacking an unworthy foe, fighting with honor etc). Vader has nothing even close.

Lawful Evil PCs have a respect for family, honor and tradition, are disciplined and follow a code that (in their eyes) makes them more noble that the standard villain.

Vader has none of that. The only 'code' he follows is the Sith code, which is summarized as basically 'Act CE, follow your base emotions, give in to hatred and anger, betray and kill your master'. His word means nothing, he was prepared to maim, turn over to the Emperor and even personally kill his own son (and wife) before finally redeeming himself to save Luke, he has no respect for traditions literally destroying the Jedi, Republic, Sith and Empire in his lifetime, follows no law (other than the Emperors orders, and he betrays the Emperor when he can get away with it).

He betrays literally everyone he cares about, and kills or tries to kill them.

Lawful Evil:


Lawful evil

Vader did not play by the rules (as a Jedi or Sith). He broke promises willy nilly. He had no personal code of conduct as a Sith and would murder a person in cold blood as they slept, stab them in the back, cut down defenseless enemies, torture women, slaughter children, or coldly watch on as billions were killed by the Death Star.

You're conflating the fact that he is a CE servant of a LE Empire. He works for the Empire (sure). But its no different to how one can be CG servant of a LG empire, church or group.

He literally existed outside and above the law, followed no code at all, never kept his word, attempted to kill every single member of his family other than his mum, killed his best friend, attempted to kill both apprentices, killed both masters and the list just goes on and on and on.

There was literally noting Lawful about him other than the regime he worked for.


Darth Vader shows restraint now?

In what possible way? Any direct attempt on Palpatine would see him dead, and when he finally did attempt it (after trying to convince literally everyone to help him in the act), it literally killed him in the process.

Read the books and the novels. Otherwise, we'll have to agree to disagree. If I had not read the novels, I would agree with you. With all the novels I read in the SW universe. I side with those that say Vador is LE. If you have the chance, read the novels. You'll see.

 

[Flamestrike]

@Helldritch

Chaotic evil

The chaotic evil alignment was power without control, selfishness unrestrained by law and order.

Thats Vader. Unrtestrained by law or order, he acts how his hatred and anger dictate (that is literally the Sith code).

Chaotic evil characters acted according to whatever their greed, hatred, and lust for destruction drove them to do.

Snap. Vader again.

Whether out for themselves, or dedicated to a cause that spread evil [the Empire] and chaos, they were ruthless and brutal in their execution.[1]

Vader.

Typically, they could only be made to align and work with others through force or coercion, with leaders lasting only as long as they could thwart attempts at being overthrown or assassinated.

Vader again. And the Sith in general.

Ultimately, these characters will commit any act to further their own ends

Including corrupting their own son to the dark side, slaughtering kids, blowing up entire planets, torturing their daughters and worse.

So Vader.

Where is Vaders code he follows? In what possible way is he like Soth, Entreri or Steel Brightblade who all follow strict codes of conduct and honor, refusing to attack unarmed or inferior foes? When does he ever keep his word, honor friends and family, or any tradition (at all)?

 

[Flamestrike]

Read the books and the novels. Otherwise, we'll have to agree to disagree. If I had not read the novels, I would agree with you. With all the novels I read in the SW universe. I side with those that say Vador is LE. If you have the chance, read the novels. You'll see.

Read the novelizations for the films, and you're wrong.

Like literally look at the above examples of LE. Look at the description I gave you for LE from the FR website, and the description of CE. It's clear where Vader sits when you look at the descriptions given.

Vader is a CE Orc Antipaladin 15 under the command of a NE 20th level Wizard and in service to the LE Empire the Wizard created. He serves the Wizard through fear (knowing full well if it comes to initiative, the Wizard wins), butchering underlings for even trivial mistakes, and generally just doing what he wants, acting compleltely outside the law, while secretly plotting to take the Wizard down.